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lloydcole
KVRer
 
27 posts since 8 Nov, 2004

Postby lloydcole; Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:11 pm Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

A week and 76 Thavius videos later (including the last but one video in which he made a Drum Machine to play external midi stuff, like mine) I'm working may way through the manual, and playing away, and I'm afraid I've found a potential deal breaker.

The Drum Machine seems oblivious that it could be set up to pass midi, as the MUTE button on a channel with Drum Machine on it does not mute the midi passing through. Right now I'm not sure what's going on but it looks like it's only muting audio (I have no audio going through it).

Please tell me I'm missing something here. I am not about to route my midi drums back through BitWig so that Bitwig can mute the audio... Adding latency is always a bad idea. Routing all my audio through BitWig when I have a perfectly good mixer and outboard gear is not an option for me.

Hopefully this is an oversight and will be bugfixed really soon. If not my residency here has been awfully short, but i do appreciate the help I've received ;)

5 minutes later. I thought of a test. I made a quick HW Instrument track and tried muting it. Same thing. What am I missing here?
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justin3am
KVRAF
 
10149 posts since 7 May, 2006, from Southern California

Postby justin3am; Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:26 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

Boy that is a tough one. I don't think it's a bug or oversight. Rather it's just something you would like to work differently. Maybe there could be an option to choose between muting Note input or Audio output.
I also mainly use the Drum Machine with external instruments but I'd be really bummed if I couldn't mute the audio output for a drum chain. I usually mute drum sounds from the instrument itself, or by deactivating the HW Instrument device.
lloydcole
KVRer
 
27 posts since 8 Nov, 2004

Postby lloydcole; Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:33 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

Thanks. That's what I'm thinking. Ugh. I just spent the last week (all of it) learning BitWig (or at least starting to learn)...
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
12561 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:35 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

lloydcole wrote:The Drum Machine seems oblivious that it could be set up to pass midi, as the MUTE button on a channel with Drum Machine on it does not mute the midi passing through. Right now I'm not sure what's going on but it looks like it's only muting audio (I have no audio going through it).


Not sure what you mean? You mean turning off the drum machine? If you mute the track, no midi is passing through that track when there is a drum machine on it
ejgallego
KVRist
 
105 posts since 8 Mar, 2017

Postby ejgallego; Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:36 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

The reason not to mute midi is that actually you may want to unmute an instrument and get the previous sound; in this case the instrument must be kept running while the sound is muted to avoid clicks and other bad effects. As justin pointed out, it looks like the best that BitWig can do now is to have a button that will operate on your particular chain adding a note filter or even disabling the device altogether.

This use case is thou worth of reporting to support.
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
12561 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:51 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

There is the option to de-activate the track... also, a note receiver can be set to mute input. Then you can turn that device on and off.
lloydcole
KVRer
 
27 posts since 8 Nov, 2004

Postby lloydcole; Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:55 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

pdxindy wrote:
lloydcole wrote:The Drum Machine seems oblivious that it could be set up to pass midi, as the MUTE button on a channel with Drum Machine on it does not mute the midi passing through. Right now I'm not sure what's going on but it looks like it's only muting audio (I have no audio going through it).


Not sure what you mean? You mean turning off the drum machine? If you mute the track, no midi is passing through that track when there is a drum machine on it


I'm afraid that is exactly what is happening... I'll wait until I hear from Bitwig before I post again.
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justin3am
KVRAF
 
10149 posts since 7 May, 2006, from Southern California

Postby justin3am; Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:29 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

pdxindy wrote:If you mute the track, no midi is passing through that track when there is a drum machine on it

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong. If I mute a track with a drum machine, MIDI does continue to trigger the instruments in the drum chains. It's just the audio which is not passed through. Otherwise, if you were to unmute the track immediately after a note was triggered, you wouldn't hear the decay of the associated sound. Also, if you were to put an audio receiver on another track, and have the drum machine routed to that, you wouldn't get sound with the drum machine track muted.

Also keep in mind that the way things are now is very useful when it comes to side-chaining. If you mute a track or chain which is routed to the key input of an effect on another track, the signal from the muted track is still passed to the key input. If the The Note input got muted that wouldn't work.
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
12561 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:58 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

justin3am wrote:
pdxindy wrote:If you mute the track, no midi is passing through that track when there is a drum machine on it

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong. If I mute a track with a drum machine, MIDI does continue to trigger the instruments in the drum chains. It's just the audio which is not passed through. Otherwise, if you were to unmute the track immediately after a note was triggered, you wouldn't hear the decay of the associated sound. Also, if you were to put an audio receiver on another track, and have the drum machine routed to that, you wouldn't get sound with the drum machine track muted.

Also keep in mind that the way things are now is very useful when it comes to side-chaining. If you mute a track or chain which is routed to the key input of an effect on another track, the signal from the muted track is still passed to the key input. If the The Note input got muted that wouldn't work.


I misunderstood... I thought he meant midi was passed through to another track, not to the drum machine on the track itself. Got it... I would prefer it be the way it is.

And it is easy enough to put a note receiver set to 'mute input' before the drum machine and turn the device off. Turn it on whenever you want to mute the midi from the drum machine.
Tearing Riots
KVRian
 
672 posts since 18 Oct, 2014

Postby Tearing Riots; Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:51 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

You can also stop the midi from playing by clicking one of the little stop buttons in the clip launcher
lloydcole
KVRer
 
27 posts since 8 Nov, 2004

Postby lloydcole; Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:28 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

This is a design oversight, as I see it. The reasoning seeming to be that The Drum Machine container doesn't necessarily output via the track it is hosted in.
In my current experiment project I have the aforementioned Drum Machine which contains several HW Instruments which trigger individual sounds in my Tanzbar Lite. This is being played by midi notes recorded in to the arranger. I cannot mute the output of the Drum Machine track in the Mixer Panel. Of course I can mute it in various other ways but surely the intent is to be able to go the the mixing panel and mix. Not just mix some channels.
I have another track which is just an instrument track playing a midi clip (hi hat) routed to the Drum Machine track. I CAN mute this track.
So, it's not that one can't mute midi, it's that Bitwig doesn't know what to do with a Drum Machine, when it comes to muting, if it isn't outputting audio.
No comment from a Bitwig representative here yet?
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
12561 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:50 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

lloydcole wrote:This is a design oversight, as I see it. The reasoning seeming to be that The Drum Machine container doesn't necessarily output via the track it is hosted in.
In my current experiment project I have the aforementioned Drum Machine which contains several HW Instruments which trigger individual sounds in my Tanzbar Lite. This is being played by midi notes recorded in to the arranger. I cannot mute the output of the Drum Machine track in the Mixer Panel. Of course I can mute it in various other ways but surely the intent is to be able to go the the mixing panel and mix. Not just mix some channels.
I have another track which is just an instrument track playing a midi clip (hi hat) routed to the Drum Machine track. I CAN mute this track.
So, it's not that one can't mute midi, it's that Bitwig doesn't know what to do with a Drum Machine, when it comes to muting, if it isn't outputting audio.
No comment from a Bitwig representative here yet?


The Bitwig devs do not read this forum much... it is mostly for users. I would not expect a reply from the Devs here.

You can mute in the Mixer. Make a group, put the drum machine on the group track and record your midi to a sub-track of the group. When you mute the sub track (which you can easily do in the mixer) midi will not pass through the drum machine to your hardware.

It is easy. There is no problem at all. Any new software requires one to adjust a bit to its various implementations. Bitwig is very flexible.
lloydcole
KVRer
 
27 posts since 8 Nov, 2004

Postby lloydcole; Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:36 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

pdxindy wrote:
lloydcole wrote:This is a design oversight, as I see it. The reasoning seeming to be that The Drum Machine container doesn't necessarily output via the track it is hosted in.
In my current experiment project I have the aforementioned Drum Machine which contains several HW Instruments which trigger individual sounds in my Tanzbar Lite. This is being played by midi notes recorded in to the arranger. I cannot mute the output of the Drum Machine track in the Mixer Panel. Of course I can mute it in various other ways but surely the intent is to be able to go the the mixing panel and mix. Not just mix some channels.
I have another track which is just an instrument track playing a midi clip (hi hat) routed to the Drum Machine track. I CAN mute this track.
So, it's not that one can't mute midi, it's that Bitwig doesn't know what to do with a Drum Machine, when it comes to muting, if it isn't outputting audio.
No comment from a Bitwig representative here yet?


The Bitwig devs do not read this forum much... it is mostly for users. I would not expect a reply from the Devs here.

You can mute in the Mixer. Make a group, put the drum machine on the group track and record your midi to a sub-track of the group. When you mute the sub track (which you can easily do in the mixer) midi will not pass through the drum machine to your hardware.

It is easy. There is no problem at all. Any new software requires one to adjust a bit to its various implementations. Bitwig is very flexible.


Thanks. I will try that. My reason for trying Bitwig is the flexibility. I actually want something quite simple with almost no content.
I would disagree that it isn't a problem, though. What you have given me is a workaround for an oversight. I'm fine with that. No software could be perfect, for all users, and I know my aesthetic is very much a niche one, these days.
lloydcole
KVRer
 
27 posts since 8 Nov, 2004

Postby lloydcole; Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:02 pm Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

pdxindy wrote:
lloydcole wrote:This is a design oversight, as I see it. The reasoning seeming to be that The Drum Machine container doesn't necessarily output via the track it is hosted in.
In my current experiment project I have the aforementioned Drum Machine which contains several HW Instruments which trigger individual sounds in my Tanzbar Lite. This is being played by midi notes recorded in to the arranger. I cannot mute the output of the Drum Machine track in the Mixer Panel. Of course I can mute it in various other ways but surely the intent is to be able to go the the mixing panel and mix. Not just mix some channels.
I have another track which is just an instrument track playing a midi clip (hi hat) routed to the Drum Machine track. I CAN mute this track.
So, it's not that one can't mute midi, it's that Bitwig doesn't know what to do with a Drum Machine, when it comes to muting, if it isn't outputting audio.
No comment from a Bitwig representative here yet?


The Bitwig devs do not read this forum much... it is mostly for users. I would not expect a reply from the Devs here.

You can mute in the Mixer. Make a group, put the drum machine on the group track and record your midi to a sub-track of the group. When you mute the sub track (which you can easily do in the mixer) midi will not pass through the drum machine to your hardware.

It is easy. There is no problem at all. Any new software requires one to adjust a bit to its various implementations. Bitwig is very flexible.


I just implemented this and there are several problems. Firstly, and I know you didn't say that this would happen, but when several midi tracks and a drum machine track are grouped, the master group mute doesn't mute anything (in this HW Instrument Drum Machine scenario).
Creating a group, in this scenario, in fact just adds clutter, as the midi tracks have to be routed to the DM track anyway. One can close the folder, to save screen space, but one has to open it anytime any muting is done.
Lastly, and worst of all, midi clips routed to Drum Machine cannot be displayed with the drum names instead of midi notes.

Honestly, it is a bit of a nightmare. But I know, learning new software isn't all about finding things as one expects, or hopes, but this is worrying, for me.
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
12561 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:15 am Re: Drum Machine channel doesn't mute midi - potential philosophical stand off?

lloydcole wrote:
I just implemented this and there are several problems. Firstly, and I know you didn't say that this would happen, but when several midi tracks and a drum machine track are grouped, the master group mute doesn't mute anything (in this HW Instrument Drum Machine scenario).
Creating a group, in this scenario, in fact just adds clutter, as the midi tracks have to be routed to the DM track anyway. One can close the folder, to save screen space, but one has to open it anytime any muting is done.
Lastly, and worst of all, midi clips routed to Drum Machine cannot be displayed with the drum names instead of midi notes.

Honestly, it is a bit of a nightmare. But I know, learning new software isn't all about finding things as one expects, or hopes, but this is worrying, for me.


In your use case, I would do what I suggested previously. Use a note receiver before the Drum Machine. Use the Mute Input option and turn off the device. Whenever you want to mute the drum machine, turn the device on. You can also turn the device on/off from the mixer page.
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