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mediumaevum
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114 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Postby mediumaevum; Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:50 am How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

https://soundcloud.com/mediumaevum-arti ... alism-test

Hope you like it, and please let me know how I can make it sound even more realistic!

Any feedback/comments appreciated.
Thanks.
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wagtunes
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12284 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Postby wagtunes; Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:07 am Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

Sounds fine to me but I'm not super critical about this stuff.

Where'd you get the clapping from?
mediumaevum
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114 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Postby mediumaevum; Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:20 am Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

wagtunes wrote:Sounds fine to me but I'm not super critical about this stuff.

Where'd you get the clapping from?


Clapping and ambience were public domain sound effects I found on a youtube channel for public domain sound fx.

I only added them to achieve as much realism to sound as much like a real recording as possible.

I don't know wether I should leave them out though. I probably will in my final piece. This is only a test to see how realistic I can make it sound like.

EDIT: Deleted the clapping and ambience + tuning.
Eauson
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612 posts since 8 Jan, 2013, from morf

Postby Eauson; Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:16 am Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

Sounds like viola, transitions between are not the cleanest, although this may the spacing,but I am also picking up almost a breathe sound throughout, also a Kerplunk sound, similar to a cassette tape stopping at approx 46 sec? I know this sound isn't these things but it sounds out of place in a way. Other than that it has a nice peaceful way to it. :)
Man is least himself when he talks in the first person. Give him a mask, and he'll show you his true face
mcbpete
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1109 posts since 24 Jun, 2006, from London, England

Postby mcbpete; Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:23 am Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

Eauson wrote:Sounds like viola, transitions between are not the cleanest
To me it's only the transition from the first and second note that seems unnatural and I can't put my finger on exactly why - Even though it seems like it'd be possible to instantly slide between those two notes I'm wondering if a slight gap or portamento might increase the realism? When there's multiple parts it definitely covers up any un-natural performance, it's just when there's that initial solo part that you have to be the most careful
Eauson
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612 posts since 8 Jan, 2013, from morf

Postby Eauson; Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:04 am Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

mcbpete wrote:
Eauson wrote:Sounds like viola, transitions between are not the cleanest
To me it's only the transition from the first and second note that seems unnatural and I can't put my finger on exactly why - Even though it seems like it'd be possible to instantly slide between those two notes I'm wondering if a slight gap or portamento might increase the realism? When there's multiple parts it definitely covers up any un-natural performance, it's just when there's that initial solo part that you have to be the most careful

Okay, however the title is
How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?
So I was just responded to what I was hearing, this is on headphones, so I am still curious about the other elements.
Doesn't matter, I'll change my response to
Sounds perfect :)
Man is least himself when he talks in the first person. Give him a mask, and he'll show you his true face
mediumaevum
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114 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Postby mediumaevum; Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:58 am Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

Eauson wrote:
mcbpete wrote:
Eauson wrote:Sounds like viola, transitions between are not the cleanest
To me it's only the transition from the first and second note that seems unnatural and I can't put my finger on exactly why - Even though it seems like it'd be possible to instantly slide between those two notes I'm wondering if a slight gap or portamento might increase the realism? When there's multiple parts it definitely covers up any un-natural performance, it's just when there's that initial solo part that you have to be the most careful

Okay, however the title is
How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?
So I was just responded to what I was hearing, this is on headphones, so I am still curious about the other elements.
Doesn't matter, I'll change my response to
Sounds perfect :)


Is the transition and overall realism better now?

If anyone knows of 8dio violas, please let me know your tips for programming this one. Consulting the manual isn't of much help, since there are limited articulations.
Eauson
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612 posts since 8 Jan, 2013, from morf

Postby Eauson; Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:21 am Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

@ 4 sec there still appears a to be a transitional element that doesn't quite flow, also between 12 +13 seconds, the outro has some artifact, which to me feels wrong.
I don't know, maybe someone who plays the viola can give you better advice, its been a long hot day and could simply be weariness on my behalf.
I do like this, its very relaxing, I do hope someone can help :)
Man is least himself when he talks in the first person. Give him a mask, and he'll show you his true face
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jancivil
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14708 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:26 pm Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

pretty good but the double-stops are obviously beyond impossible. Study the instrument some more.

around 4 sec there is a not-too-convincing release character as noted already.
mediumaevum
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114 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Postby mediumaevum; Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:46 pm Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

jancivil wrote:pretty good but the double-stops are obviously beyond impossible. Study the instrument some more.

around 4 sec there is a not-too-convincing release character as noted already.


Is it before or after 4 sec.? Is it at 3-4 sec.?

What do you mean by double-stops and where do you hear them?
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ChamMusic
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506 posts since 12 Jun, 2006, from Birmingham, UK

Postby ChamMusic; Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:07 pm Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

It sounds pretty good ...very warm and stringlike!

Does it sound like a viola...maybe to some extent, yes...it is good enough to convince people who have never sat in a hall performing next to a viola player or listened to various real life string quartets. Is it seriously realistic...NO!

But I wouldn't worry about it too much, unless you seriously want to put many hours into achieving this aim.

jancivil wrote:Study the instrument some more.


If you want to create a realistic sounding viola, you have to start by knowing what a real viola sounds like and what it is capable of! Ditto any other instrument.

8Dio don't do a Solo Viola that I'm aware of so I'm guessing that you are using the SOLO VIOLA settings within ADAGIO VIOLAS? Yes this is a little limited in terms of articulations, but it's not too bad.

I'm guessing from the sound that you are using one of the LEGATO patches? The key here is the scripting inside the Kontakt engine to create ongoing subtle variation and flow. You access the scripting by using:

CC1 (Dynamics), CC11 (Expression) and CC12 (Vibrato Character) to shape the beginning of each phrase + the way it flows beyond that....use a MIDI controller to do it in real time or draw it in with the freehand tool.

CC1 CC11 CC12 in this software all work together to create the necessary ebb and flow to the sound...experiment with different combos to get it just right for each piece.

Remember that beyond the start of a phrase, sub-articulations on other notes are triggered by individual KEY SWITCHES...If I remember correctly, they are 10 or more available... subtle variations in articulation on each and every LEGATO patch.

IMPORTANT:
The various LEGATO patches are quite different and respond better to certain tempos...they all have different characters.

Ebb, flow, subtle changes in articulation, rise and fall in dynamics, subtle changes in pitch etc etc all go to make something sound 'realistic'. Samples by nature are quite static...make them move!

Sampled Cello:
https://soundcloud.com/bournvillemusic/ ... g-examples
Last edited by ChamMusic on Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music
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ChamMusic
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506 posts since 12 Jun, 2006, from Birmingham, UK

Postby ChamMusic; Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:13 pm Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music
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jancivil
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14708 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:22 pm Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

mediumaevum wrote:
jancivil wrote:pretty good but the double-stops are obviously beyond impossible. Study the instrument some more.

around 4 sec there is a not-too-convincing release character as noted already.


Is it before or after 4 sec.? Is it at 3-4 sec.?

What do you mean by double-stops and where do you hear them?

Wow. Ok, 'stopping' the string is putting your finger on the fingerboard to produce a pitch other than an open string. Double-stops is when you've done two; on different strings which one would hope was self-evident.
I turned it off around the time it seemed like I was hearing 3 or more *stopped notes but it was already something no one could remotely achieve.

The release problem is not that noticeable except to those of us really in-the-know, mind; but release is going to be heard when one stops playing. So where there is a phrase break in there, around there, I don't know exactly. But the sound just stops where the bow will actually come off of the string.
It sounds like a sample, not reality. But the true deal-killer is the *slurred (ie., LH as opposed to bowed) legato more-than-one-line bit, which can't be done. And is evident pretty soon after all that business starts.
mediumaevum
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114 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Postby mediumaevum; Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:13 am Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

jancivil wrote:
mediumaevum wrote:
jancivil wrote:pretty good but the double-stops are obviously beyond impossible. Study the instrument some more.

around 4 sec there is a not-too-convincing release character as noted already.


Is it before or after 4 sec.? Is it at 3-4 sec.?

What do you mean by double-stops and where do you hear them?

Wow. Ok, 'stopping' the string is putting your finger on the fingerboard to produce a pitch other than an open string. Double-stops is when you've done two; on different strings which one would hope was self-evident.
I turned it off around the time it seemed like I was hearing 3 or more *stopped notes but it was already something no one could remotely achieve.


I'm not sure I understand this double-stop. Do you mean double bows? I have not one viola (only in the beginning), but 2 violas, one cello and a cello ensemble pizzicato later.
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ChamMusic
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506 posts since 12 Jun, 2006, from Birmingham, UK

Postby ChamMusic; Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:29 am Re: How realistic can a Virtual Solo Viola sound?

mediumaevum wrote:I'm not sure I understand this double-stop.


Watch the video I posted above it explains it very clearly.

mediumaevum wrote:Do you mean double bows?


No! It's simply playing two strings at the same time with one bow! Usually the two strings are STOPPED...you have fingers on them, but the technique is also used on totally open strings...see the video!

jancivil wrote:I turned it off around the time it seemed like I was hearing 3 or more *stopped notes


Note: It is actually possible to play 3 notes at once on a violin or viola...TRIPLE STOPPING, but not in soft, slow passages like this one.

Nearer the fingerboard is where triple stopping can be done by a skilled player, but it requires a lot of bow pressure on the strings and can't be done gently...many composers have written triple stopping into hectic, loud passages - Bach did it a quite a few times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVga8H4zvyQ

Historical Note: It was actually easier on early versions of the violin as the bridge supporting the strings was slightly straighter / flatter!
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music
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