Hello,
I was wondering if any of you know if someone has made a vst-plugin that "hosts" other plugins, something like the vb-audio dx-vst plugin, but with the option of using higher sampling rates, allowing to "host" various eq's and filters at higher sampling rates when running the main sequenser at 48kHz?
cheers
Upsampler-downsampler
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- KVRist
- 415 posts since 8 Dec, 2003 from NYC (born & raised in Philly)
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
I'm not 100% sure what the benefit of this would be. I understand the theory (at higher rates, people have noted a better sound on the filters), but in practice I don't know that you would reap those benefits...
Your source is 48k, then gets upsampled... does that create any artifacts? If not, then the filter is applied to a good source. If yes, then the theory is already shot.
Let's assume not-- your audio gets processed through a filter at a higher rate, and then it will be downsampled again to 48k, which means that to preserve anything resembling a decent sound, you'll likely have to have a dithering algorithm in place, no? Since dithering DOES introduce noise, any further processing will be on a 'contaminated' source.
I'm no expert and not saying I'm right... More accurately, I'm just posing the questions based on common conceptions so that the experts can either refute or confirm.
Greg
Your source is 48k, then gets upsampled... does that create any artifacts? If not, then the filter is applied to a good source. If yes, then the theory is already shot.
Let's assume not-- your audio gets processed through a filter at a higher rate, and then it will be downsampled again to 48k, which means that to preserve anything resembling a decent sound, you'll likely have to have a dithering algorithm in place, no? Since dithering DOES introduce noise, any further processing will be on a 'contaminated' source.
I'm no expert and not saying I'm right... More accurately, I'm just posing the questions based on common conceptions so that the experts can either refute or confirm.
Greg
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 45 posts since 3 Mar, 2005
I understand that this wouldn't be a "purist" approach, the best way to work at higher sampling rates would in theory be to keep the whole signal chain at the same rate, but there's to many apps around that's either too cpu intensive or simply doesn't work at higher sampling rates, so that's why I thought this could be a good thing too have.
I know up and downsampling can create artifacts, but the benefit would still be *very* noticeable in some cases. For instance the waves renaissance eq isn't among my favourites working at lower sampling rates, but at 96kHz it's a DAMN good eq imo, and when I've downsampled my 96kHz files to 48/44,1kHz most of the improved sonic quality survives.
Any dsp programmers out there who thinks this is a good idea? I'd love to be customer #1 for something like this
I know up and downsampling can create artifacts, but the benefit would still be *very* noticeable in some cases. For instance the waves renaissance eq isn't among my favourites working at lower sampling rates, but at 96kHz it's a DAMN good eq imo, and when I've downsampled my 96kHz files to 48/44,1kHz most of the improved sonic quality survives.
Any dsp programmers out there who thinks this is a good idea? I'd love to be customer #1 for something like this
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Spaceman Sounds Spaceman Sounds https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=56830
- KVRian
- 580 posts since 3 Feb, 2005
I've wondered about this as well. An upsampler that forces a vsti to work at higher sample rates while the rest of the project is at a lower one. I'll ask Voxengoo guy, I'm sure he could do it.
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- KVRAF
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
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- KVRian
- 880 posts since 11 Jun, 2001 from Munich, Germany
I am actually working on such a plugin! While most of the theoretical stuff and the algorithms are more or less there (polyphase filters for up-/downsampling, VST host code, ...), I am working on putting it all together. The VST host inside a plugin is still giving me some headache, as preset loading/saving won't work as expected yet, but the main problem right now is that the up-/downsampling introduces some artefacts which should not be there in theory.
As I said, I am working on such a thing, but it might take some time to turn it into something which is actually usable
Cheers
Toby
www.tobybear.de
PS: One benefit of such a plugin for VSTis would be that it could seriously reduce aliasing in oscillators for non-bandlimited oscs.
As I said, I am working on such a thing, but it might take some time to turn it into something which is actually usable
Cheers
Toby
www.tobybear.de
PS: One benefit of such a plugin for VSTis would be that it could seriously reduce aliasing in oscillators for non-bandlimited oscs.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 45 posts since 3 Mar, 2005
Ahh, cool, looking forward to that, Toby
What would be really cool would be having the ability to chain different vst's inside the plugin, keeping the up and down sample conversions to a minimum. It would also be good if it was possible to change the order of effects within the plugin, especially cubase users would find this to be a nice feature, I'd guess.
cheers
What would be really cool would be having the ability to chain different vst's inside the plugin, keeping the up and down sample conversions to a minimum. It would also be good if it was possible to change the order of effects within the plugin, especially cubase users would find this to be a nice feature, I'd guess.
cheers
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- KVRAF
- 4021 posts since 7 Sep, 2002
Toby, a suggestion: implement linear-phase resampling as well. Polyphase filters do sound well with audio, but they have their sound (it's pretty good overall), but for such a general-purpose up/downsampling plug-in having only polyphase filters is a little unflexible.
Another suggestion would be a 'skip the downsampling filtering' option. With most equalizers upsampling alone is usually enough as they do not add harmonic content which then should be filtered out when downsampling.
Another suggestion would be a 'skip the downsampling filtering' option. With most equalizers upsampling alone is usually enough as they do not add harmonic content which then should be filtered out when downsampling.
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Spaceman Sounds Spaceman Sounds https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=56830
- KVRian
- 580 posts since 3 Feb, 2005
Toby, glad your working on this. I'd buy it straight away as would about 10 other people I know.
I'd be happy with just the option to export the vsti at the higher sample rate without the need to downsample in real time in your vsti upsampler.
I know you'd need to downsample to be able to play back at 44khz, but the quality wouldn't be much of an issue for me as I would have the untreated wav of thenow 96khz export. I'd just resample it to 44khz using the great Vocengo R8 brainback into the project.
It's mor about being able to ecport a vsti at a higher sample rate without having to change the project to the higher sample rate, whith dsp cards it's a real pain
I'd be happy with just the option to export the vsti at the higher sample rate without the need to downsample in real time in your vsti upsampler.
I know you'd need to downsample to be able to play back at 44khz, but the quality wouldn't be much of an issue for me as I would have the untreated wav of thenow 96khz export. I'd just resample it to 44khz using the great Vocengo R8 brainback into the project.
It's mor about being able to ecport a vsti at a higher sample rate without having to change the project to the higher sample rate, whith dsp cards it's a real pain
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- KVRian
- 880 posts since 11 Jun, 2001 from Munich, Germany
Hi people!
Thanks for your encouraging words
However, please be patient, I am just one man and I have lots of other things to do as well. This is only an experiment I am doing with this plugin and I can't sacrifice my whole time for it, so as I said, don't expect a public release or finished plugin anytime soon.
And it is not that easy to build a host inside a plugin, so currently that is my primary issue I am working on, not the upsampling.
@aleksey: thanks for your suggestions. how exactly does linear phase resampling work - do you have any links? Maybe the artefacts I hear are indeed related to my polyphase filters. Optional skipping of the downsampling process definitely makes sense...
Cheers
Toby
www.tobybear.de
Thanks for your encouraging words
However, please be patient, I am just one man and I have lots of other things to do as well. This is only an experiment I am doing with this plugin and I can't sacrifice my whole time for it, so as I said, don't expect a public release or finished plugin anytime soon.
And it is not that easy to build a host inside a plugin, so currently that is my primary issue I am working on, not the upsampling.
@aleksey: thanks for your suggestions. how exactly does linear phase resampling work - do you have any links? Maybe the artefacts I hear are indeed related to my polyphase filters. Optional skipping of the downsampling process definitely makes sense...
Cheers
Toby
www.tobybear.de
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Spaceman Sounds Spaceman Sounds https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=56830
- KVRian
- 580 posts since 3 Feb, 2005
Damn I really need to buy a better keyboard... the amount of typo's in my posts he he...
Toby, this is what I like about small developers, innovation and keeping the customers informed and involved
If you got this plugin to work, it would revolutinise the quality of vsti's witout having to sacriface all your cpu to working at 96khz. I would pay about £50 for this... over at the uad forum there is a topic on this as well.
Toby, this is what I like about small developers, innovation and keeping the customers informed and involved
If you got this plugin to work, it would revolutinise the quality of vsti's witout having to sacriface all your cpu to working at 96khz. I would pay about £50 for this... over at the uad forum there is a topic on this as well.
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- KVRAF
- 4021 posts since 7 Sep, 2002
Toby, the only tricky part about linear-phase resampling is FFT filtering code. If you have it, there's nothing difficult. Contact me via info@voxengo.com when you are ready for more details on linear-phase resampling.
On polyphase filters, make sure you've implemented them properly - you should not hear any odd artifacts. These filters add their coloration, but it is not easily heard.
On polyphase filters, make sure you've implemented them properly - you should not hear any odd artifacts. These filters add their coloration, but it is not easily heard.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 45 posts since 3 Mar, 2005
Spaceman, yes this would be really great for certain vsti's, but there's a bunch other vst's that could benefit a lot too, most noteably some eq's and filters.
I too would gladly pay a nice chunk of change for this, as long as the up/down-sampling algorithm sounds good.
I too would gladly pay a nice chunk of change for this, as long as the up/down-sampling algorithm sounds good.
