Hartmann R.I.P

[HanafiH]

Couldn't it be argued that all digital synths could be realized on a computer? Although I haven't used the keyboard version, my understanding is that the interface is really quite nice. As for whether they were overpriced, that's another matter entirely. But (if you didn't have the compatibility issues that some users report) the combo of the vs and the nuke is quite amazing. I'm not going to worry about whether I paid too much. It's unique.

Yes indeed that could be argued, but in the Hartman instance you had the basic componentry of a PC packed inside a Keyboard shaped tin. The company even admited as much, decribing it as 'a highly specialized PC', but people very quickly worked out it was a PC in a cute looking box.

I'm sure plenty of people are going to have lots of fun with their Nukes. It will probably accrete a User group, who will work out how to get around the flaws in the system, and if you stick with yours you'll almost certainly end up with a latter day fizmo on your hands.

But however lovely the Fizmo might sound, it failed in the marketplace for the want of a $1.98 voltage controller. It's sad, but it's true - Ensoniq got a single component on the mobo wrong and the synth quite rightly died the death. It's the same with the Hartman - when it was released I remember writing in this forum - why isn't this the kind of development being done by audio soft developers instead of endless Moogalikes? Well the answer to that question is that it was being done by audio soft devs, only they put it in a flashy tin and tried to get $3000 dollars for it. Sad but inevitable.

[munchkin]

SOS is the Lancet of music tech journalism. I'd trust my life on it's reviews. If they say it's crap then it's time to get the shovel out. The fact that I own shares in the company has nothing to do with it.

If I owned a £3000 white elephant I'd be taking no prisoners in this debate too. The fact that anyone could (and did) take the synth for a spin at their local music store doesn't really lend itself to the don't comment unless you've played it theory.

[bmanic]

Just always amused about how people can comment so knowledgeably from mp3's. But I appreciate the jumping on the bandwagon impulse. I own a Kyma and love it. It sounds nothing at all like the VS, which is totally unique. An instantaneous timbre on the neuron could probably be duplicated on a number of synths. however, it's ability to morph seamlessly between drastictly different timbres is quite unique. You can get there a lot faster than you can on a Kyma, which is obviously way more powerful as a general tool. Obviously, for the sort of person who would want the type of capabilities that the Kyma offers that would be BY FAR the better purchase. However, one could make that argument about the Kyma vs any $3000+ synth, of which their exist a few. If overall synth power is what you're looking for get the kyma.

Fair enough. If one really wants the harman sound then of course the fastest way would be to buy it but my point was mainly trying to address the value for money aspect of the neuron which ihmo never has been that impressive. Sample/fm/additive hybrid vector based synths can morph very nicely too and this can easily be built in a modular computer system.

I can't give a fair comment about the neuron though, as I have not played one and I do realise how important this part is. I would never actually buy a piece of gear worth more than 200$ based on reviews or word of mouth alone.

Cheers!
bManic

Ps. I'm extremely envious of your kyma system. Damn you.

[droolmaster0]

Couldn't it be argued that all digital synths could be realized on a computer? Although I haven't used the keyboard version, my understanding is that the interface is really quite nice. As for whether they were overpriced, that's another matter entirely. But (if you didn't have the compatibility issues that some users report) the combo of the vs and the nuke is quite amazing. I'm not going to worry about whether I paid too much. It's unique.

Yes indeed that could be argued, but in the Hartman instance you had the basic componentry of a PC packed inside a Keyboard shaped tin. The company even admited as much, decribing it as 'a highly specialized PC', but people very quickly worked out it was a PC in a cute looking box.

I'm sure plenty of people are going to have lots of fun with their Nukes. It will probably accrete a User group, who will work out how to get around the flaws in the system, and if you stick with yours you'll almost certainly end up with a latter day fizmo on your hands.

But however lovely the Fizmo might sound, it failed in the marketplace for the want of a $1.98 voltage controller. It's sad, but it's true - Ensoniq got a single component on the mobo wrong and the synth quite rightly died the death. It's the same with the Hartman - when it was released I remember writing in this forum - why isn't this the kind of development being done by audio soft developers instead of endless Moogalikes? Well the answer to that question is that it was being done by audio soft devs, only they put it in a flashy tin and tried to get $3000 dollars for it. Sad but inevitable.

Well, I'm still not that clear on the concept. Obviously the keyboard isn't worth it unless you really like the sound, like the interface, and can afford it. the fact that it's a digital synth - well, to my mind it's easily worth double a V-synth, but that's because it sounds way better, and sounds truly unique. Of course, that's a subjective opinion.

As far as 'flashy tin'. Well, it's my understanding that the interface is quite useful. that aside from more effects (which you can pretty much get from using the vs in a vst environment), that the keyboard really works well with the software. But - I haven't tried it myself. but then again, neither have you, right?

but again - it really just seems that what you're saying would apply to all digital synths that are way more expensive because they are in hardware form, the v-synth, for instance.

[talynidm]

HanafiH wrote:

It was an attempt to sell PC based processing technology at a very, very high price by hiding the PC inside the shell of a classic keyboard synthesizer. The small VST version was an attempt to extend the market when the sales of the main unit were too poor. Both products were overpriced and the market corrected itself.

That is exactly what it is.
The processors in the Neuron Hardware synth are pentiums.

Both products were overpirced.

If they had the money to support a VSTi, then they should have broken their product line into separate pieces. And charged less for each piece.

Like NATIVE INSTRUMENTS.

The development team, and coding was probably inferior to N.I.

This is all in all a sad thing.
Regardless of the price and whether or not you thought it was innovative, it did sound good.

I hope that in some capacity they can at least continue to sell the hardware or the software.

It sounds very bad, because it sounds like NO ONE COMPANY OR PERSON "owns" the actuall CODEING and software technology.

^^^^If that were not the case, at least a company could still sell VSTi's for a lower price with A LOT LESS money needed to produce the procuct.


Its things like this that make me worry CREAMWARE or SYMBOLIC SOUND will go bankrupt. Both of which would mean NO SUPPORT FOR ME.

^^^^because if it is cracked, it does not sound like it is the crack that broke their back, it sounds like REALLY REALLY bad partnerships were formed, spreading the rights to ownership of the code around, and also UNIMAGINEABLY bad distribution contracts.

I hated when waldorf filed for insolvency.

The same trend happened to them, they made some stabs at the VSTi world, some worked.

The last product I remember them making was some kind of combo of ANALOG FILTERS with a vsti red PPG and other PLUGS TO BE DEVELOPED, run through the filters. The idea was to have the filters be enough of an incentive to purchase the Vsti's I think.

Ensoniq, Waldorf, Hartmann, Emu.....

Emu and Ensoniq were saved by Creative Labs.

But Ensoniq is just a name now.
They used to be innovators, transwaves, digital synths with analog filters, esq-1. I still own an ASR-10 and love it.

Maybe Hartmann's true legacy will end up like the FIZMO, or WAVESTATION. Something not that practical, but so unusall and distinctive sounding that it will become a collectors edition.

Hardware is hurting.

Korg and ACCESS are the only two companies that seem to be making a successfull transition between hardware and not just software but speciffically VSTi.

I hope this is not a sign of things to come.

[droolmaster0]

SOS is the Lancet of music tech journalism. I'd trust my life on it's reviews. If they say it's crap then it's time to get the shovel out. The fact that I own shares in the company has nothing to do with it.

If I owned a £3000 white elephant I'd be taking no prisoners in this debate too. The fact that anyone could (and did) take the synth for a spin at their local music store doesn't really lend itself to the don't comment unless you've played it theory.

Well, then, you, OF COURSE, realize that the initial review was on an early edition, and addressed problems that were mostly fixed. And that the review of the VS was quite a rave review. Right - you know that, right? And the comment about not commenting unless you've played one was directed (obviously) at people who, gulp, hadn't played one. The person who had, had played on one which obviously wasn't working properly. Well, one of the gripes against the assholes at Hartmann is that they didn't communicate with their users, and, it looks like, will actually never fix the problems. but, the fact remains, that the majority of users got it working, and did not experience serious problems.

[arturmeinild]

I'm not surprised, and I'm happy I didn't buy the Neuron VS. Buggy *and* unsupported software really sucks...

[talynidm]

As far as I understand the updates of the software were not that BUGGY.

If you look at what was under the hood of the Hardware synth,....it just takes ALOT of computer to make it run well probably.

Why do I see NUKE controllers rising in price on ebay a year from now?

[Sascha Franck]

Sorry to say so, but IMO Hartmann f**ked the VS up in the first place. Regardless whether it's sounding good, regardless whether it's unique, it's been clear the day it came out that you can't sell a (native) synth plugin at a price that you could get, say, an NI Komplete package *plus* something else for.
Thinking (or even vaguely hoping) it'd be any different is just plain dumb and stupid, proving absolutely no clue about how this market works. Every single person up here at KVR could've told them.

[Colonel Flashback]

As far as I understand the updates of the software were not that BUGGY.

afaik there never have been any updates...

[jens]

system20, I got it when the price went to 150euro (before I knew what was going on - I just though it was a stroke of luck). The sound is quite simply amazing.

http://www.zirconstudios.com/Neuron%20Pad.mp3
http://www.zirconstudios.com/Neuron%20Pad%202.mp3

Some crude live playing while I modulate the joystick.. obviously programmed automation would sound much better, but I just wanted to get a demo or two out.

as if I couldn't get such sounds e.g. with CoFX' Vectrik...

[droolmaster0]

Sorry to say so, but IMO Hartmann f**ked the VS up in the first place. Regardless whether it's sounding good, regardless whether it's unique, it's been clear the day it came out that you can't sell a (native) synth plugin at a price that you could get, say, an NI Komplete package *plus* something else for.
Thinking (or even vaguely hoping) it'd be any different is just plain dumb and stupid, proving absolutely no clue about how this market works. Every single person up here at KVR could've told them.

yeah - I think you hit the nail right on the head. I am glad I bought mine (at the full price, with a bit of a discount), but I think that the number of people who would pay that much on a softsynth, no matter how good, is pretty damn small. The Nuke is cool and adds value, but the vs shouldn't be more than a few hundred dollars.

The other thing that did them in was the fact that they absolutely did not communicate with users. People practically begged them to give some answers on their forum about the progress of upgrades, etc, but there was always a deafening silence. From some recent posts (mostly on the German forum which babelfish gave some vague meaning to) there was also some serious infighting in the company, with a refusal to take responsibility.

Well - I think it's a great, but very flawed product that is quite usable despite its flaws. I'm pretty stupid with money sometimes - I really wanted one, so I bought it. Now that the money is gone, I have a really great, unique synth, which is admittedly quite infuriating to use in some ways.

[Alan]

the initial review was on an early edition, and addressed problems that were mostly fixed.

From what I understand,there hasn't been one single update to this softsynth,at least according to the forum members on their forum.Are you referring to hardware controler revisions?

[droolmaster0]

the initial review was on an early edition, and addressed problems that were mostly fixed.

From what I understand,there hasn't been one single update to this softsynth,at least according to the forum members on their forum.Are you referring to hardware controler revisions?

right - the facts are that SOS gave a bad review to an early edition of the KEYBOARD. Most of the issues that they address were fixed. They gave the vs a glowing review. I believe that there were some early updates to the keyboard (to fix some major issues), but there have been no updates to the vs.

[ericj23]

the review in SOS being referred to was of the synth - the hardware has been upgraded