One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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aciddose
KVRAF
12202 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Post Tue May 14, 2019 9:54 am

Compyfox wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 am
Since SoundCloud does not(!) have this feature yet (loudness normalization),
Nobody has mentioned such a thing as "loudness normalization" and you seem to misunderstand what we're discussing here. The suggestion is that the competition offer advice/suggestion to limit the maximum RMS/LKFS of a track (including sections of track such as per-bar) to a certain value. -14 dB LKFS was suggested as this is a common broadcast standard and already employed by various commercial streaming services.

It is not possible to automatically apply this. It requires measuring the result and adjusting in an iterative process like most tasks in mixing. This specific level however is the typical maximum level for a well-mixed sample of music which is why it was chosen as a broadcast standard.

I've been able to find several descriptions of volume limiting applied by streaming services using the misnomer "normalization". While it is possible to limit volume downward by simply reducing the gain, it is not possible to do so upward without introducing distortion. (It's physically/mathematically impossible.) Normalization is not an accurate term because in reality such an automated process would be a combination of multiple techniques including both gain reduction (downward limiting) and compression (upward limiting).

The fact the service in question does not apply an automatic process is not "the problem" and not what we're discussing here at all. What we're discussing is to provide some basic information (suggestion) to newbies and experienced alike about the preferred loudness for well mixed tracks entered into the competition.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.

Compyfox
KVRAF
14306 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Wed May 15, 2019 1:28 am

aciddose wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:50 am
Compyfox wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:10 pm
Why make it so complicated?
My description made it simple. If that's to be considered "complicated" then well, I'm sorry you feel that way.
Been there, done that in 2015
viewtopic.php?p=6057492#p6057492



aciddose wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:54 am
The suggestion is that the competition offer advice/suggestion to limit the maximum RMS/LKFS of a track (including sections of track such as per-bar) to a certain value. -14 dB LKFS was suggested as this is a common broadcast standard and already employed by various commercial streaming services.
Common Broadcast standards (as of May 2019):

Code: Select all

Netflix			-27LUFS (recently adjusted down)
Broadcast (France)	-24LUFS
Broadcast (Germany)	-23LUFS
Broadcast (Japan)	-24LUFS
Broacast (USA)		-23LUKS

Streaming Services:

iTunes			-16LUFS (the hotspot that the P/LOUD group recommends)
Tidal			-16LUFS (got adjusted on the last day of AES142/Berlin 2016)
Spotify			-14LUFS (I thought they adjusted down to -16LUFS, but it doesn't look like it)
Youtube			roughly -13LUFS (they still do their own thing)
SoundCloud		no adjustment
Facebook		roughly -14LUFS
Check in with NUGEN AUDIO's MasterCheck for most recent standardized values. NUGEN AUDIO are on the pulse of time in this field, since they've been heavily involved in creating/pushing the standard in the first place.



aciddose wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:54 am
I've been able to find several descriptions of volume limiting applied by streaming services using the misnomer "normalization". While it is possible to limit volume downward by simply reducing the gain, it is not possible to do so upward without introducing distortion. (It's physically/mathematically impossible.) Normalization is not an accurate term because in reality such an automated process would be a combination of multiple techniques including both gain reduction (downward limiting) and compression (upward limiting).
I can forward you to the right people if you want to complain about the "misnomer". But the technical term is "normalization", because you "normalize a program stream to a specific target level".

I've been doing this for over 1,5 decades as you're probably aware. You don't have to teach me on that. I never said that "upwards normalization" is lossless. In fact, I've mentioned several times that adjustments "upwards" to a certain level does need a limiting process (ceiling at either -2dBTP or -1dBTP, depending on the limitations per country), and that the higher you push in terms of loudness, the more likely it is that your material will sound like garbage and you need a suitable headroom as well - especially on Lossy CODECs, or those where you don't have a control of (SoundCloud).



aciddose wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:54 am
The fact the service in question does not apply an automatic process is not "the problem" and not what we're discussing here at all. What we're discussing is to provide some basic information (suggestion) to newbies and experienced alike about the preferred loudness for well mixed tracks entered into the competition.
Again - the basic information has been there for years at this point. On KVR Audio, cross referenced several times in plenty of threads that are only remotely about gain staging, signal leveling, metering tools, etc.

What is missing in the OSC Rules and Guidelines, is a text block that addresses a more reasonable loudness/target output level. Plus constant and easy-to-understand education with each monthly game.



From recent posts however, it has been made clear to me that the educational side of things is still fairly lacking. A lot of you over-complicate things, or have "personal opinions" on the topic. I feel like being talked down on (again, if I may add - happened in here before).

My recommendation - invest the time, dig through my KVR Marks as I've covered this topic over and over and over (if your signature is activated, the links have been there since early 2010s), update the rule set with the one simple sentence I've written a couple of posts up:
"We recommend/encourage people to mix at a suitable work level - for example the infamous -18dBFS = 0VU = -18dB RMS (avg)"

or

"We recommend to not master/render out with a signal strength exceeding -14LUFS ILk or -12dB RMS avg (K-System v1)" (which also covers the question "is mastering allowed?!")
Then that problem is solved.

In fact - I've now said everything that needs to be said. What will be made out of it, is up to the OSC Staff.




The criticism of the "OSC favor votes form non participants" can then be tackled next.

Have a nice day
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User avatar
schiing
KVRist
299 posts since 27 Oct, 2015

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Wed May 15, 2019 3:58 am

Wow, this topic really is a hornet's nest!

Just skimmed through the last couple of pages, and I get the distinct impression that, despite a lot of words, everyone basically agree with exponent1's very simple request! [so for all newcomers - reset :D ]: viewtopic.php?p=7395644#p7395644

I guess it doesn't really matter, but I just want to add one final clarification to my posts that it seems might have been unclear - shouldn't be too controversial: I never wanted to give the impression that you should "master by genre" as such when I was discussing zarf's point.

I was merely trying to point out: Do your thing, do proper gain staging, all of that, mix your tracks until they sound good - and expect (not another hornet's nest, God, please!) variations specific to genre/material when you enter the mastering stage. NOT saying most tracks can't meet somewhere in the middle depending on what you're mastering for, just, essentially, that some tracks won't get you all the way to 11 on Soundcloud (Spinal Tap, not LUFS!)

generaldiomedes
KVRian
650 posts since 15 Apr, 2017 from Canada

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Wed May 15, 2019 5:01 am

And if you don't do all that, that's fine too.

User avatar
schiing
KVRist
299 posts since 27 Oct, 2015

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Wed May 15, 2019 6:30 am

generaldiomedes wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:01 am
And if you don't do all that, that's fine too.
Except your thing! Do do your thing! :D

User avatar
aciddose
KVRAF
12202 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Wed May 15, 2019 7:03 pm

Compyfox wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:28 am
Common Broadcast standards (as of May 2019):
Why did you bother making a huge pointless list? We're already suggesting -14 dB K-FS and you already agreed with the suggestion.
Compyfox wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:28 am
I can forward you to the right people if you want to complain about the "misnomer". But the technical term is "normalization", because you "normalize a program stream to a specific target level".
Compression is not "normalization". Thank you for again ignoring what I said and the point of me saying it. I'll do the same for you now.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.

Compyfox
KVRAF
14306 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Wed May 15, 2019 8:28 pm

aciddose wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:03 pm
Why did you bother making a huge pointless list?
Because you wrote, and I quote:
"-14 dB LKFS was suggested as this is a common broadcast standard and already employed by various commercial streaming services"

Which it is not. I merely gave you an overview of the current targets for various commercial streaming services.


aciddose wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:03 pm
We're already suggesting -14 dB K-FS
dB K-FS doesn't exist. Neither does -14 dB LKFS (LKFS already declares the used unit). Now you're making up terms.


It's either "dBFS k-weighted, <type of ballsistics/meter go here>" or "LUFS, <type of ballistics/meter go here, like MLk/SLk/ILk>" or "LKFS, <type of ballistics/meter go here>" (LKFS is mostly used for the ITU-R BS.1770-2 and higher specification, the EBU still tries to convince them to switch their labeling to LUFS) .

If (emphasis) you're adapting LUFS, that is. Else it's "dBFS RMS avg, <type of ballistics go here>" (ballistics can be at "standard" 300ms, K-System/Dorrough 40A at 600ms, both are non-weighted)

If you're so persistent about education - and constantly "have to" correct me (b/c I'm obviously doing this wrong and only over-complicate things/confuse the readers), then do it right, please.


aciddose wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:03 pm
Compression is not "normalization".
There is no compression involved during "normalization to target level". Especially around -16LUFS ILk. Clipping or rather maximum signal peak limiting - yes, which are special forms of compression. But compression of the average signal strength, therefore influencing the loudness range, does not happen.


aciddose wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:03 pm
Thank you for again ignoring what I said and the point of me saying it. I'll do the same for you now.
No - I have to thank you for constantly correcting me. Your posts were very educational. Looks like with my 15+ years of experience in this field of expertise, I've yet a lot to learn. If you want to invest the time to help my knowledge holes, my PM Inbox is open.



Else, looking forward to the adaption of the new rule. :tu:


(can we step on the breaks now? I really do not like this ongoing patronizing tone. Thank you very much...)
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User avatar
Tj Shredder
KVRAF
2470 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Wed May 15, 2019 10:29 pm

Couldn’t you just agree to disagree? This pointless bouncing of “I am right and you are wrong” does not help the discussion...
(I needed +25 years of life experience to learn that, I know its not easy...; - )

User avatar
crimsonwarlock
KVRAF
1978 posts since 18 Apr, 2001 from The Netherlands

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Mon May 20, 2019 6:38 am

Just came across the news that Atlantis has gone 64bit, and subsequently found out that there has never been an OSC for Atlantis while back in the day it was one of the more popular free options. It is still a pretty impressive beast tmo, so maybe a candidate for an upcoming OSC :D

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/atlant ... remy-evers

Image

PS. the download contains several skins including a bigger one that is pretty workable on hires screens 8)
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, using Reaper and a fine selection of freeware plugins.

Ragnarök VST-synthesizer co-creator with Full Bucket

RichardSemper
KVRist
469 posts since 30 Oct, 2013 from Stoke On Trent

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am

crimsonwarlock wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:38 am
Just came across the news that Atlantis has gone 64bit
Thanks for the heads up. Got to have a look at this!
Good to hear from you. Its been a while. :tu:

User avatar
crimsonwarlock
KVRAF
1978 posts since 18 Apr, 2001 from The Netherlands

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Tue May 21, 2019 10:44 am

RichardSemper wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:25 am
crimsonwarlock wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:38 am
Just came across the news that Atlantis has gone 64bit
Thanks for the heads up. Got to have a look at this!
Good to hear from you. Its been a while. :tu:
Have been playing around with it a bit; you seriously need to check out the manual to find how incredibly deep this thing is. And some things I didn't even see in the manual but found by accident; the envelopes can have up to 31 breakpoints and are incredibly powerful. I also suggest to pick up the 5 numbered preset files here on the product page, to get some insight into the possibilities. The default presets don't really show the possibilities tmo.
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, using Reaper and a fine selection of freeware plugins.

Ragnarök VST-synthesizer co-creator with Full Bucket

User avatar
DistoCore
KVRer
28 posts since 14 Jan, 2014 from Germany

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Tue May 21, 2019 1:40 pm

hi,

here is another candidate:
We recently updated our FREE version of Bazz::Murda to 1.7.1:

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/bazz-m ... -distocore

WIN + MAC in both versions for 32-bit and 64-bit DAWs.
It's also ready to rock one of the upcoming OSCs.

functionform
KVRist
347 posts since 13 May, 2017 from Virginia

Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Post Tue May 21, 2019 4:41 pm

Oooooo, I vote Murda! The distortion on that unit is INCREDIBLE. Very unique for a free synth and easy to use. We would get some amazing entries out of this one. The super easy ability to overdrive to insanity would make incredible textures.

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