Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
papwalker
KVRer
24 posts since 15 Apr, 2018

Post Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:09 pm

@FMR
For example, WTF are you talking about with the "original five years ago"?
I was speaking of the plugin.
A change of 0.025 (which in pratice is much less because it is 0.025 of the index on the left) produces basically inaudible results
[edit: I wrote wrong algo 1, I meant 32 although you can use algo any where they are both carriers]
Using Algo 32, turn off all operators except one and two.
Leave OP1 at 1 and set OP2 at 1.01 (you will need to use something other than Arturia)
Using C3, as you change from 1:1 to 1:1.01 you will hear a reinforced sine take on a beat frequency. Changing to 1.02 pretty well doubles that beat frequency. The difference is very audible and if you move from C3 to C2 you will notice the beat frequency 1:1.02 move down to C2 to give roughly the same result as C3 at 1:1.01 We use such a change to move our BFO up and down the keyboard as preferred by our choice of register.

Using an oscilloscope and you can see and hear the stark difference between 1:1, 1:1.01, 1:1.02
The engineers at Yamaha were neither stupid nor pedantic. They had good reason to use such fine detail.
Now I first used a DX7 in 1986 and my ears have taken a beating since I started playing in 1968 but I can still easily hear that difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIFAopzQz84
Last edited by papwalker on Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

papwalker
KVRer
24 posts since 15 Apr, 2018

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:40 pm

There are ways to see the differences between plugins and hardware.
There is an anomaly on the hardware in that there are EG settings that will randomly arpeggiate a cord or alter the sequence of an arpeggio. The plugins I've tried don't do this.

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EvilDragon
KVRAF
16919 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:44 pm

mcbpete wrote:Yeah I still don't know why they do that - Why have a slider/button/dial rendered in *every* position at *every* GUI size rather than animating and scaling it in code ?
I guess lazy programming... but also when you specifically render out the GUI at specific sizes, you guarantee no artifacts due to resizing algorithm (esp. if the GUI was done in a 3D software skeuomorphically, like Arturia's probably are).

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fmr
KVRAF
7618 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:28 am

papwalker wrote:
fmr wrote: A change of 0.025 (which in pratice is much less because it is 0.025 of the index on the left) produces basically inaudible results
[edit: I wrote wrong algo 1, I meant 32 although you can use algo any where they are both carriers]
Using Algo 32, turn off all operators except one and two.
Leave OP1 at 1 and set OP2 at 1.01 (you will need to use something other than Arturia)
Using C3, as you change from 1:1 to 1:1.01 you will hear a reinforced sine take on a beat frequency. Changing to 1.02 pretty well doubles that beat frequency. The difference is very audible and if you move from C3 to C2 you will notice the beat frequency 1:1.02 move down to C2 to give roughly the same result as C3 at 1:1.01 We use such a change to move our BFO up and down the keyboard as preferred by our choice of register.

Using an oscilloscope and you can see and hear the stark difference between 1:1, 1:1.01, 1:1.02
The engineers at Yamaha were neither stupid nor pedantic. They had good reason to use such fine detail.
Now I first used a DX7 in 1986 and my ears have taken a beating since I started playing in 1968 but I can still easily hear that difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIFAopzQz84
Algorithm 32 is the "additive" algorithm - no FM modulation whatsoever. You can get exactly the same results by simply detuning the oscillators (you don't even need to touch the ratio parameter). Again, you need to check DX7 V and study it, since it goes way beyond DX7. Actually, the DX7 V is much more precise than the DX7.

I tried with ratio, using for the OP2 1+0.025 and the result was basically inaudible. With a setting of 1+0.05 the result was audible but really subtle. I think the result you are looking for is 1+0.1 (which will be the equivalent to your 1.01 ratio in the DX7). Again, the DX7 V is not less precise than the DX7, IT IS MORE (4 times more precise, to be exact), and you are stating wrong facts regarding the DX7 V.

EDIT: Actually, to get the result I get with DeXed and the second operator set to a ratio of 1.01, I have to use a ratio of 1+2.00 in DX7 V, which means the DX7 V is even much more subtle than I thought. I think this is related to the fact that the Frequency Coarse of the DX7 only goes up to 32, while in DX7 V you go from 00 to 64 (doubled the value). It also only goes down up to to 0.5, while the DX7 V goes down up to 0.25. So, the synth engine in the DX7 V is even more precise than my previous estimation. Not even the FM synth engine of the SY99 reach such precision (and yes, I have the SY99).
Fernando (FMR)

hermetica
KVRer
9 posts since 24 Mar, 2018

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:13 am

BlackWinny wrote:
hermetica wrote:My 2 cents: I've tried DX7V again and again, and each time got to the same conclusion : it sounds like mud compared to Dexed - just plain ugly. There's something immediately harmonious, round and clean about Dexed, that makes it sound like "not an emulation" compared to all it's competitors. I don't know anything about the real DX7 but really love that cristalline, musical fullness. One thing it lacks a lot though is bass. I'm very tempted to get a Volca FM as i understand it has much more powerful basses.
Beware: is the velocity range of your DX7V set to "DX7" (meaning "100") or to "Full" (meaning "127") ? You set the correct velocity range at the bottom line of the GUI.

That said, Dexed remains my preferred DX7 emulation, but when the velocity of the DX7V is correctly set, it is really very good too, very close to the real hardware, at the point that it is sometimes very difficult to affirm if we hear the DX7V, the Dexed, or the true DX7.
I've tried all different settings to get the patches to sound the closest possible on both plug ins. DX7V never comes close to Dexed in terms of… I don't know, simple mathematical beauty? it's just a musical difference to my ears. Maybe DX7V's rough sound is closer to the real deal, especially with it's pile of useful and powerful controls, but I couldn't care less - I can load infinite instances of dexed in a single project, and it works with sysex, not some proprietary bullshit.

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BlackWinny
KVRAF
3500 posts since 17 Jun, 2013 from very close to Paris, France

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:28 am

hermetica wrote:
BlackWinny wrote:
hermetica wrote:My 2 cents: I've tried DX7V again and again, and each time got to the same conclusion : it sounds like mud compared to Dexed - just plain ugly. There's something immediately harmonious, round and clean about Dexed, that makes it sound like "not an emulation" compared to all it's competitors. I don't know anything about the real DX7 but really love that cristalline, musical fullness. One thing it lacks a lot though is bass. I'm very tempted to get a Volca FM as i understand it has much more powerful basses.
Beware: is the velocity range of your DX7V set to "DX7" (meaning "100") or to "Full" (meaning "127") ? You set the correct velocity range at the bottom line of the GUI.

That said, Dexed remains my preferred DX7 emulation, but when the velocity of the DX7V is correctly set, it is really very good too, very close to the real hardware, at the point that it is sometimes very difficult to affirm if we hear the DX7V, the Dexed, or the true DX7.
I've tried all different settings to get the patches to sound the closest possible on both plug ins. DX7V never comes close to Dexed in terms of… I don't know, simple mathematical beauty? it's just a musical difference to my ears. Maybe DX7V's rough sound is closer to the real deal, especially with it's pile of useful and powerful controls, but I couldn't care less - I can load infinite instances of dexed in a single project, and it works with sysex, not some proprietary bullshit.
The essential is to love the product one uses.
:D

As long as you love Dexed (and so do I) just enjoy it (and so do I). The rest is time lost. Life is so short...

Some will love a synth. Others will love another one. Others will love both. That's life.
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Build your life everyday as if you would live for a thousand years. Marvel at the Life everyday as if you would die tomorrow.

papwalker
KVRer
24 posts since 15 Apr, 2018

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:33 am

Knowing the goal posts would be moved ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUtx3F0OBbo
The DX7 V accurately models the FM digital synthesizer ...
No it doesn't. As you say you must requires different settings / procedures to do the job. It's a new synth with badge engineering. It's been 'reimagined' [insert any other marketeer cliche / buzzword here]
I'm not changing my sysex files or my original Yamaha patch charts or filtering the to and fro from an app that uses different values and structures.
Dexed operates almost identically to my DX hardware. That's all I want.
When I want a new different architecture FM synth plugin then I'll look elsewhere. Sytrus, Dune whatever

Dexed was about replicating the Yamaha DX series sound and operation in software. Warts and all.

Thread is about the open source Dexed plugin and true or not you come across as an Arturia shill determined to stamp out favor for a competing product, and we know how corporations feel about open source and free.

papwalker
KVRer
24 posts since 15 Apr, 2018

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:42 am

hermetica wrote: I've tried all different settings to get the patches to sound the closest possible on both plug ins. DX7V never comes close to Dexed in terms of… I don't know, simple mathematical beauty? it's just a musical difference to my ears. Maybe DX7V's rough sound is closer to the real deal, especially with it's pile of useful and powerful controls, but I couldn't care less - I can load infinite instances of dexed in a single project, and it works with sysex, not some proprietary bullshit.
Hear hear
:tu:

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BlackWinny
KVRAF
3500 posts since 17 Jun, 2013 from very close to Paris, France

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:50 am

Papwalker, who are you, you who just subscribed on KVR a few days ago, to criticize FMR who is here and appreciated by all the community for his contributions for more than 15 years, who is sound designer, more experimented than many of us in the synthesis since decades, and that you don't know at all ?

Your allusions to corporations and your suspicions are particularly unwelcome.

If you have come here to create a mess you can get back where you come from.
Build your life everyday as if you would live for a thousand years. Marvel at the Life everyday as if you would die tomorrow.

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fmr
KVRAF
7618 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:59 am

papwalker wrote:
The DX7 V accurately models the FM digital synthesizer ...
No it doesn't. As you say you must requires different settings / procedures to do the job. It's a new synth with badge engineering. It's been 'reimagined' [insert any other marketeer cliche / buzzword here]
I'm not changing my sysex files or my original Yamaha patch charts or filtering the to and fro from an app that uses different values and structures.
Dexed operates almost identically to my DX hardware. That's all I want.
When I want a new different architecture FM synth plugin then I'll look elsewhere. Sytrus, Dune whatever

Dexed was about replicating the Yamaha DX series sound and operation in software. Warts and all.

Thread is about the open source Dexed plugin and true or not you come across as an Arturia shill determined to stamp out favor for a competing product, and we know how corporations feel about open source and free.
So, when I dismounted your statement, and showed that you were bashing based on false premises, you changed your arguments to say that the parameters are not the same. :hihi:

Parameters ARE the same, only values aren't, but that's because the DX7 V goes way beyond DX7, and does much more. This was something that all the people involved agreed upon since the very beginning. This doesn't mean it doesn't accurately model the DX7. It does (and the fact that it can import the SysEx files and play the sounds faithfully is a testimony), but since it does more (what does more, does less) you have to accommodate the parameters for the more.

I am not bashing DeXed (which I am supporting since it started BTW, contributing with posts and input to the author, even to what would become the GUI - I was already using DeXed when it still didn't have a GUI). But, IMO, it would be pointless to launch COMMERCIALLY an instrument that would be JUST an emulation of the DX7 (which is a rather limited FM instrument, IMO). Actually, even the DX7 V doesn't completely fulfill what I want from a modern FM synth yet - but I hope it will get there eventually.

Now, let's get back to DeXed :)
Last edited by fmr on Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:07 am, edited 4 times in total.
Fernando (FMR)

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fmr
KVRAF
7618 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:04 am

BlackWinny wrote:Papwalker, who are you, you who just subscribed on KVR a few days ago, to criticize FMR who is here and appreciated by all the community for his contributions for more than 15 years, who is sound designer, more experimented than many of us in the synthesis since decades, and that you don't know at all ?

Your allusions to corporations and your suspicions are particularly unwelcome.

If you have come here to create a mess you can get back where you come from.
Thanks Jacques :tu:
Fernando (FMR)

papwalker
KVRer
24 posts since 15 Apr, 2018

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:06 am

BlackWinny wrote:Papwalker, who are you, you who just subscribed on KVR a few days ago, to criticize FMR who is here and appreciated by all the community for his contributions for more than 15 years, who is sound designer, more experimented than many of us in the synthesis since decades, and that you don't know at all ?

Your allusions to corporations and your suspicions are particularly unwelcome.

If you have come here to create a mess you can get back where you come from.
I just call 'em as I see 'em.

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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
26122 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:52 am

fmr wrote:
BlackWinny wrote:Papwalker, who are you, you who just subscribed on KVR a few days ago, to criticize FMR who is here and appreciated by all the community for his contributions for more than 15 years, who is sound designer, more experimented than many of us in the synthesis since decades, and that you don't know at all ?

Your allusions to corporations and your suspicions are particularly unwelcome.

If you have come here to create a mess you can get back where you come from.
Thanks Jacques :tu:
awww. its twue wuv.
"The bearer of this signature is a genuine and authorised pope."

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fmr
KVRAF
7618 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:07 am

:clap: :borg:
Fernando (FMR)

electro
KVRAF
4350 posts since 6 May, 2002

Re: Free FM Synthesizer Dexed (VST Windows and Mac)

Post Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:35 am

papwalker wrote:Knowing the goal posts would be moved ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUtx3F0OBbo
The DX7 V accurately models the FM digital synthesizer ...
No it doesn't. As you say you must requires different settings / procedures to do the job. It's a new synth with badge engineering. It's been 'reimagined' [insert any other marketeer cliche / buzzword here]
I'm not changing my sysex files or my original Yamaha patch charts or filtering the to and fro from an app that uses different values and structures.
Dexed operates almost identically to my DX hardware. That's all I want.
When I want a new different architecture FM synth plugin then I'll look elsewhere. Sytrus, Dune whatever

Dexed was about replicating the Yamaha DX series sound and operation in software. Warts and all.
I agree Dexed is a gem and the preferred tool to control the hardware DX7 ITB. Is anybody else ready to pay for a Dexed Pro that can work like this prduct? Realtime Sysex updating of all parameters, useful to control a DX7 with broken buttons
https://www.mysteryislands-music.com/pr ... r-plug-in/
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