FM synth with VA operators?

[Dewdman42]

I'm gonna check out Bazille, I like the things people are saying about it.

[zerocrossing]

Anyway i think that Nemesis, FM8 and Bazille are diifferent enough for using all three of them (at least for me).

Yeah, think so too, FM8 for the more "tradtional" DX approach, Bazille for the modular approach, and Nemesis for NeoFM synthesis

Totally agree!
I add just only one detail to point out: FM8 goes significatively far beyond the original DX7 in the ability of modulations between the operators.

And Octopus is also a very, very good complement (additive, FM, and sample-based with very comprehensive matrix of modulations between all the 8 oscillators) for someone who can't afford Bazille or FM8 or Nemesis or Sytrus which all four are excellent but perhaps quite expensive for some amateurs.

I really love Octopus! I use it for years (as well as FM8). Here are its features (all that for only €99):

• 2 independent sound generation modules
• 8 additive oscillators
• Each oscillator can contain up to 32 harmonics
• Each oscillator's spectrum is fully editable
• Each oscillator has sample-analysis capability
• Additive oscillators can be configured for 8-oscillator FM synthesis
• Waveforms can be easily edited by the user and new waveforms can be created in seconds
• Matrix-FM with 8 oscillators, full cross-modulation, adjustable feedback for any oscillator
• 8-slot sampler with adjustable keyboard range
• Sampler loads WAV/AIFF samples up to 24bit/192kHz
• 2 independent, multimode filters with modulatable cutoff and resonance
• Filters are available as FM sources
• Up to 32 envelopes with up to 64 host-syncable segments, free-run, loop and adjustable slope (curve)
• Envelope matrix offers modulation of amplitude, mix, panning, pitch, frequency, phase of any oscillator and filter cutoff and resonance
• Graphical envelope editor with advanced editing capabilities
• Envelopes can be scaled to keyboard and velocity independently
• A stereo effects section containing 4 effects units including chorus, delay, reverb and a 4-band parametric equalizer
• Warm tube-like distortion
• 2 sophisticated 32-step sequencers/arpeggiators
• Unison and Glide
• Microtuning support
• 12-voice polyphony (CPU dependent)
• Adjustable voice limit (1...12)
• Sample accurate timing
• Fully recognizes Velocity, Aftertouch, Pitch bend, Modwheel and various other MIDI controllers
• Envelopes, oscillator waves, sequences, and complete sound programs can be saved to disk and loaded from disk

I'm also a big Octopus fan. I think it gets way too little attention here when FM or additive are brought up.

Also, look into Toxic Biohazard. It has multiple waveforms for FM as well as being able to create your own waveforms based on WAV or AIFF files.

[aMUSEd]

Hoping there will be an Octopus 2 one day - if they added some formant capabilities it would be the closest plugin to an FS1R.

[Lotuzia]

what is NeoFM?

Ingo, do you know what the Tone2 concept is?

First of all i think it is a way of finding a name for real frequency modulation opposing to phase modulation used in the majority of other FM synths including the Yamaha ones.
While for Sines and very simple "sinoid" waveforms it could sound similar there is a big difference for more complex waveforms.
Besides that there are different NeoFM modes adding another oscillator or Sub-Osc to the sound and also different Sync modes that combine Fm wit ha Synced sound.
Last but not least besides additional phase modulation modes (like in teh DX) there are modes not directly doing FM but e.g. Formant synthesis or phase distortion.

While maby e not as complex as Fm8 in terms of combining multiple operators alone the combination of real FM, the import of custom waveforms and the waveform editor make it different from oter FM synths.

I know that some "FM gurus" prefer synths like FM8 but for me besides quite simple operator configuarations FM8 is too complex for creating my own sounds. If for example i have a look at some of the patches Lotuzia has done in his commercial bank for Fm8 (which sounds great...) in several cases i have no clue how he achieved certain sounds (sometimes up to 4 oparators in a row including feedback). I could try to do the same but it would be more like trial and error.


Ingo

Thanks Ingo

Well something that FM lovers have to consider when comparing FM synths is that the FM8 has 8 operators, and you can connect them in every possible way, ( all with feedback and with their own complex enveloppes )

As for n to n+1 operators in a row it very easy if you follow a simple rule : 1srt finish the works with the n-1, n-2 ops ( oscillators) and then add another one if needed. At this stage all you have to think is that you still have a simple n,n+1 couple, so something that you already perfectly master.

Another interesting FM synths with lots of operators to play with : Blue

Cheers,

LtZ

[Ingonator]

As for n to n+1 operators in a row it very easy if you follow a simple rule : 1srt finish the works with the n-1, n-2 ops ( oscillators) and then add another one if needed. At this stage all you have to think is that you still have a simple n,n+1 couple, so something that you already perfectly master.

Hi Laurent,

many thanks for the hint. Did not really see it that way so far. Will give programming FM8 another try soon.


Ingo

[Numanoid]

Titlke of the thread: "FM synth with VA operators?" (The operator is an oscillator)

...does anyone know if there is a synth which can do FM synthesis, using oscillators that are a little more virtual analog instead of pure digital?

Bazille must be exactly what the OP is looking for:

"hybrid modular system: digital oscillators, analogue filters - unlimited patching capabilities".

Maybe we are reading a different thread or something?

I'm pretty sure that one can choose waveforms shapes such as square, triangle, sawtooth and sine in the oscs in Bazille:

Frequency Modulation Synthesis (or FM synthesis) is a form of audio synthesis where the timbre of a simple waveform (such as a square, triangle, or sawtooth) is changed by modulating its frequency with a modulator frequency that is also in the audio range, resulting in a more complex waveform and a different-sounding tone that can also be described as "gritty" if it is a thick and dark timbre.

[Numanoid]

Well something that FM lovers have to consider when comparing FM synths is that the FM8 has 8 operators

Interesting, just like Casio VZ-1

[pdxindy]

Hoping there will be an Octopus 2 one day - if they added some formant capabilities it would be the closest plugin to an FS1R.

+1

[pdxindy]

I'm gonna check out Bazille, I like the things people are saying about it.

Feel free to ask any questions in the u-he forum... The currently available beta does not have any included presets but there are lots you can download.

If you have experience with analog modulars, then you will be right at home. If not, it will take some learning because the toolset is different. When I first started I was clueless what lag generators, rectifiers, multiples etc were. And it can be daunting because you can wire it up in so many ways not possible with the usual synth architecture.

Just one example, you can take the output of a filter, and route it back into itself. You can create some crazy feedback stuff.

There are some skilled users in the u-he forum so just ask if you feel stumped... Once you get over the initial wtf... then it is so much fun!

[ghettosynth]

I'm pretty sure that one can choose waveforms shapes such as square, triangle, sawtooth and sine in the oscs in Bazille:

I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about, I haven't been following, but, AFAIK, this is not correct. The Bazille oscillators are sine wave oscillators. You can get several other waveshapes through one of several means, the simplest being through phase distortion.

The oscillators also have a drift component that you can enable or disable. I found it annoying on a few patches and had to turn it off.

But, AFAIK, there is no way to simply select a different waveform and have the traditional analog type modulations. For example, choosing a square wave and modulating the pulse width. You have to use either FM/PM or PD techniques to achieve these effects.

The modular aspect of it adds a lot of character, no doubt, but they oscillators are distinctly different from those in a typical VA/subtractive synth.

[pdxindy]

I'm pretty sure that one can choose waveforms shapes such as square, triangle, sawtooth and sine in the oscs in Bazille:

I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about, I haven't been following, but, AFAIK, this is not correct. The Bazille oscillators are sine wave oscillators. You can get several other waveshapes through one of several means, the simplest being through phase distortion.

The oscillators also have a drift component that you can enable or disable. I found it annoying on a few patches and had to turn it off.

But, AFAIK, there is no way to simply select a different waveform and have the traditional analog type modulations. For example, choosing a square wave and modulating the pulse width. You have to use either FM/PM or PD techniques to achieve these effects.

The modular aspect of it adds a lot of character, no doubt, but they oscillators are distinctly different from those in a typical VA synth.

Turn up the phase distortion with saw selected and you have a saw wave... same with square wave.

[ghettosynth]

I'm pretty sure that one can choose waveforms shapes such as square, triangle, sawtooth and sine in the oscs in Bazille:

I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about, I haven't been following, but, AFAIK, this is not correct. The Bazille oscillators are sine wave oscillators. You can get several other waveshapes through one of several means, the simplest being through phase distortion.

The oscillators also have a drift component that you can enable or disable. I found it annoying on a few patches and had to turn it off.

But, AFAIK, there is no way to simply select a different waveform and have the traditional analog type modulations. For example, choosing a square wave and modulating the pulse width. You have to use either FM/PM or PD techniques to achieve these effects.

The modular aspect of it adds a lot of character, no doubt, but they oscillators are distinctly different from those in a typical VA synth.

Turn up the phase distortion with saw selected and you have a saw wave... same with square wave.

No, I know that, that's EXACTLY what I said. You have to use either PM/FM or PD to obtain the other waves. The PD "Saw" neither sounds nor looks exactly the same as a typical VA saw. You can see the difference in the scope and they sound subtly different with, e.g. ACE's sawtooth having greater upper harmonic content. Further, as I said, there is not a simple modulation parameter to achieve variable pulse width.

I would expect a VA square wave/pulse oscillator to have a "virtual" PWM control/input. Bazille does not, it has controls typical of FM/PD synths. Yes you can achieve PWM sounds, but you do it using FM/PD techniques, or by VA techniques using the rest of the modular, e.g., using two oscillators, taking their difference, and modulating the phase of one of the oscillators. Fun with the half-saw waveform as you get kind of a PWM of a subbass sound reminiscent of later Roland DCO synths like the MKS-50.

[filter303]

Yes you can achieve PWM sounds, but you do it using FM/PD techniques, or by VA techniques using the rest of the modular, e.g., using two oscillators, taking their difference, and modulating the phase of one of the oscillators. Fun with the half-saw waveform as you get kind of a PWM of a subbass sound reminiscent of later Roland DCO synths like the MKS-50.

Thanks you for this tip. I love the MKS-50 Saw and I want to try this right away!

[ghettosynth]

Yes you can achieve PWM sounds, but you do it using FM/PD techniques, or by VA techniques using the rest of the modular, e.g., using two oscillators, taking their difference, and modulating the phase of one of the oscillators. Fun with the half-saw waveform as you get kind of a PWM of a subbass sound reminiscent of later Roland DCO synths like the MKS-50.

Thanks you for this tip. I love the MKS-50 Saw and I want to try this right away!

It's reminiscent, not identical. I'd have to fire up the MKS to tell you how close it gets

You have to use the half-saw+saw though, not half-saw+same. The former puts the sine on every other cycle giving you the sine-sub effect. Just use dual inputs on a filter to sum, feeding one oscillator through an inverter. Vary the oscillator mix to get tradeoff between PWM harshness and raw oscillator waveform sound. Somewhere in there is a sweet spot that's fun to play.

YMMV.

BTW: In case anyone thinks that I'm criticizing Bazille in any way, I'm not. It's damned fun. Also, if the OP is looking for "complex" waveforms as operators, yes, Bazille gives you this. If that's what you mean by VA, sure, I just wouldn't call the oscillators VA.

[pdxindy]

No, I know that, that's EXACTLY what I said. You have to use either PM/FM or PD to obtain the other waves. The PD "Saw" neither sounds nor looks exactly the same as a typical VA saw. You can see the difference in the scope and they sound subtly different with, e.g. ACE's sawtooth having greater upper harmonic content. Further, as I said, there is not a simple modulation parameter to achieve variable pulse width.

of course its not a VA synth... but it does have VA'ness... which is what the OP asked for

you can do a saw wave... and it sounds pretty similar to the Zebra saw... the Zebra saw also sounds different from Ace, which sounds different from Diva... they are all saw waves.