The most closest vst to Yamaha FS1R is ....

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
KVRAF
12372 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:29 am

pdxindy wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:07 am

I'm also generally not thrilled with the state of FM synthesis. How many versions of the DX7 are we gonna get? And 8 operators? I cannot even visualize what to do with 8 operators. It gets too complicated.
I think that a lot of people think about this in terms of ever more complex interactions and sophisticated algorithms. As I've said before, I think thinking in terms of algorithm is a bottleneck here. I think that thinking more in terms of basic forms is the right way to think about it. John Chowning said as much BTW.

So the advantage of more than 6 operators is largely in being able to construct more layers of those forms and then feeding the mixed results into other elements of the voice chain, e.g., filters, on a per voice level.

I feel that thinking in terms of Yamahaha's decades old approach is a severely limiting factor in FM synth design.
My 2 favorite FM synths are Bazille and the Elektron Digitone. Bazille is really something different and the Digitone is a simplified 4 operator FM synth that is pretty easy to make interesting sounds with.
A friend of mine has one of those. I think it sounds cool, I'm trying to ditch hardware completely at the moment though. I can do some interesting stuff in Reakt0r, but, I don't have the time or energy to take it further. As much as I like Bazil1e, no really, I think that it's a fantastic synth, I find it irritating to do some of the things that I find interesting with FM. I know that Urs isn't really interested in taking it in a more technical direction, HS basically dismissed my interest in breakpoints. I don't find workarounds to be the same thing in terms of workflow and I would constantly run into annoyances trying to certain kinds of sounds. Basically, I want an 8 op FM8 with Urs' filter/oscillator/fx technology. Barring that, I want SuperBaz1lle, with double the oscillators and envelopes and proper complex envelopes, CPU load be damned.
The new Korg OPSix looks interesting as a hardware FM synth because it does stuff like Ring Mod, Filter FM and Wavefolding along with the using FM and has some decent filter models. I haven't tried it, but it also might be a pretty interface for hands on FM design.
It does sound cool. I'm staying disciplined though, no new hardware until all of the old and unused hardware is gone. Except for osmose, that doesn't count.

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KVRAF
18493 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:57 am

ghettosynth wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:29 am
Barring that, I want SuperBaz1lle, with double the oscillators and envelopes and proper complex envelopes, CPU load be damned.
That seems unlikely... fortunately for me, I am satisfied with Bazille as is. I use Bitwig modulation with Bazille when I want more complex modulations.

I run projects with Bazille @ 96khz cause it sounds better, but then CPU is heavy and the whole project is heavy. So the one feature I would really like is to be able to run Bazille with its own oversampling option so it sounds like 96 but I can run the project at 48
ghettosynth wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:29 am
It does sound cool. I'm staying disciplined though, no new hardware until all of the old and unused hardware is gone. Except for osmose, that doesn't count.
I'm enjoying hardware a lot. I have the Osmose and also the Isla S2400 drum machine/sampler both on order. Also am putting together a small eurorack setup cause there are various creative modules that have no direct software equivalent, or don't have the sound quality.

KVRian
581 posts since 29 Oct, 2015 from Jupiter 8

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:03 am

@ghettosynth: maybe you should ask Tadashi (HY-Plugins) who is also on this forum.

edit: i think his nick is hyakken on here.

He does insane stuff at even more insane paces.
Most of his products sound pretty digital anyway, so maybe such a synth would actually be right up his ally!
(thinking of an interface similar to his HY-Poly combined with such an FM engine :oops: )
“People pay good money for old stuff because they mistakenly think that the gear has more to do with the products than it actually did. And because it makes them feel good to own it.“ wise man on GS

KVRAF
12372 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:14 am

pdxindy wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:57 am
ghettosynth wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:29 am
Barring that, I want SuperBaz1lle, with double the oscillators and envelopes and proper complex envelopes, CPU load be damned.
That seems unlikely... fortunately for me, I am satisfied with Bazille as is. I use Bitwig modulation with Bazille when I want more complex modulations.
Yes. I don't know what Urs is working on these days. I don't blame him for focusing on the things that make money with the features that get people to buy things though.
ghettosynth wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:29 am
It does sound cool. I'm staying disciplined though, no new hardware until all of the old and unused hardware is gone. Except for osmose, that doesn't count.
I'm enjoying hardware a lot. I have the Osmose and also the Isla S2400 drum machine/sampler both on order. Also am putting together a small eurorack setup cause there are various creative modules that have no direct software equivalent, or don't have the sound quality.
I have a couple of small modulars, but I don't use them very often and I still prefer working ITB. I go through phases where I try hardware. I get lots of noodling done, but I don't finish it. Must stay the course, no new hardware!

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KVRAF
21411 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:49 am

ghettosynth wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:14 am
Yes. I don't know what Urs is working on these days.
Big Sur/Apple Silicon compatibility, then Uhbik 2, then framework updates for old stuff (Filterscape, MFM2, etc) along with new GUIs for them, then Zebra 3.

KVRAF
12372 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:54 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:49 am
ghettosynth wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:14 am
Yes. I don't know what Urs is working on these days.
Big Sur/Apple Silicon compatibility, then Uhbik 2, then framework updates for old stuff (Filterscape, MFM2, etc) along with new GUIs for them, then Zebra 3.
Yes, most of that I know about. I haven't been following Uhb1k 2, I probably don't care. What I meant was, I don't know what big new things he's working on. Maybe my perception of time is changing, I don't know, but it seems like he was able to crank out new stuff a lot faster in the past. I get the sense that maintenance issues are taking up a lot more time than they used to, for whatever reason.

KVRAF
3168 posts since 2 Jul, 2005

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:42 pm

Any of you guys ever play with FoF synthesis? There is plenty of info out there on how to implement it. It's been my favorite for formant synthesis since I first set it up on my nord modular. If formants are something you are into it's something that's worth checking out. The standard version is based around bursts of windowed sine waves, but you can get silly with the waveforms too for weirder results. I honestly don't know how the fs1r works outside it's implementation of fm, but this type of windowed formant synthesis makes for really neat sounds all around.
Don't F**K with Mr. Zero.

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KVRAF
32369 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:46 pm

There are a few attempts at FS1R ish Nord Modular G2 patches in the archive

https://electro-music.com/forum/viewtop ... 5580#85580

'ish' being the operative word I guess (excuse the pun) - I have no way of knowing how close they are but at least the modular G2 environment allows for complex FM instruments to be created with high numbers of OPs.

bnz
KVRist
82 posts since 12 Mar, 2004

Post Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:47 pm

Has anyone here tried to mess with msoundfactory for recreating those unique FS1R or SY sounds? I'm kind of surprised that it actually seem to tick a lot of boxes of those SY-ish properties that I outlined before that I'd like to have. It was kind of under my radar so far, but the 8-op fm generator actually looks pretty sweet.

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KVRAF
4018 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Post Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:31 pm

bnz wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:14 am
I agree, most FM plugins are not very unique. Most of them even stop with four operators or they are DX7 clones.

I'm not sure though whether I agree that 8 operators are possibly too much. I've never had the FS1R, but I find 6 operators to be manageable as mostly, you don't do more than stacks of 3 or 4 operators. If you have 3 3-stacks in parallel, you are working already with 9 operators. So depending on how you program the sound, you can run out of operators pretty quickly, espcially if you have stacks in parallel for layering. I agree though that the usefulness of those 5 or 6-stack algorithms is kind of limited. At least the amount of people who can do something useful with them is probably rather small. But looking at the algorithm sheet of the FS1r, I'd say that most of them actually look kind of usable if you exclude some odd ones like algorithm 66 or 37 which I suspect were just included because they could.

Here is my concrete wish list for some 6+ op VST FM synth (in addition to the typical DX7 capabilities):

- freely configurable algorithms
- envelopes with loops / msegs
- custom carrier waveform
- operators with at least two inputs for modulation
- sample-based operator modulation (with custom waveforms)
- multiple feedback loops (at least three) per algorithm where source and destination operators can be freely specified
- fs1r like formant filters

Once we have that, we're starting to get somewhere near the capabilities we've had back in the 90s with the SY77/SY99 with AFM ;-) Personally, I'm hoping to see these features one day either in Halion or Falcon to be able to mix them up with other syntheses and sampling. I'm just not very optimistic that it'll happen at all. It didn't happen the last 20 years. So I have my SY77 still around, but the lack of voices (only 16) can be pretty annoying sometimes.
Almost all of that can be done with tranzistow’s fm engine ( except samples as modulators , but you can draw your own)
Operators have two inputs just like the sy/tg , super flexibable ultrafast loopable envelopes , new skirt parameter etc ..
Tranzistow is a beast , even on fm ( phase mod ) territory.
Tg 77 is ace too ( need to replace screen asap!)
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