The most closest vst to Yamaha FS1R is ....

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KVRAF
12372 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:40 am

ghettosynth wrote:
Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:06 pm
EvilDragon wrote:Well... formant synthesis as done by FS1R is a different pair of shoes. Also, FS1R has 8 voiced and 8 unvoiced operators, so it's not your usual FM box really.
Yes, in theory, but, past six operators or so, the combinatorial advantage of having all of those operators in one box diminishes. There are diminishing returns for having long complex modulation chains and most of the advantage can be attributed to layering simpler chains. For sounds that just rely on more operators, I think that two or three layered instances of FM8 will get you there. In general, I think that this is an overlooked concept that is so simple it's absurd. Just layer existing synths to get complex sounds from synths that combined technologies.

Since you have one, if you'd like to discuss some particular patches that really highlight what is special about the FS1R, I'd certainly be interested in that.
I posted this five years ago and it is still quite valid. Even the DX-7 has many patches that are just parallel chains of small numbers of operators. So, those kinds sounds can be duplicated by layering smaller synths in many cases. I think that much of the reason that only collectors care is that the result isn't unique enough to be worth the effort in most cases.

Don't get me wrong, I think that more complex variants of FM are cool and I've spent a lot of time mucking around with more generalized FM synths in Reakt0r, but I think a lot of the hype here is about FOMO with respect to unobtanium.

I don't think the filters sound good and I'm not hearing anything ultra amazing in most of those videos. Most of what I'm hearing sounds like a few modern romplers layered. I'd really like to hear more complex evolving and subtle sounds or complex PM like tines that highly how real time modulation makes a difference in these types of sounds.

Anyway, I'm forever disappointed in modern FM software synths because they insist on being clones. Artur1a didn't have the vision to stretch beyond some basic modifications of the DX7. I think that FM programming is still too unapproachable for the masses and therein lies the rub. If getting the most out of it requires programming, then the dramatic increase in programming complexity beyond six operators means that most users will view it as a preset box. I think that the modern variants capture this idea and try to simplify how a sound can be evolved with complex modulation with that big ass mondo knob, or whatever Yamahaha calls it. I've contemplated getting a modern Yamahaha workstation, the feeling usually passes quickly.

Depending on your interests, the best alternatives at the moment are either one of the aforementioned FM synths, Reakt0r, or modulars like Baz1lle. Even Artuira's Synclavier is interesting for some sounds. Each has strengths and weaknesses depending on what your sound goal is. I think for most of those pads in the videos, layering up synths like padshop, romplers, and VA synths will get you there and there is little point to FM synthesis for static sounds like that.

Anyway, YMMV and all that. Please post FS1R sounds that are really unique to the FS1R and would still require some complex programming today to achieve, AND, have value in the modulation such that sampling it is not a reasonable goal. That's what I'd like to hear.
Last edited by ghettosynth on Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:30 am, edited 4 times in total.

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KVRAF
21411 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:54 am

Dunno man, those FS1R filters to me sound really good (same ones as in AN1x), especially considering they are from first generation of VAs. Yammie really did some things right there, back in the day. Who knows what, but dunno... everything just sounds really pleasant. Sure, don't expect deep modeling of non-linearities, but on its own merits, it's a great and flexible filter.

That said, I really need to give more time to that blue box. :) The whole formant sequencing concept is something I never saw replicated in this manner in any plugin. But yeah, it's not for the faint of heart....

KVRAF
12372 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:59 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:54 am
Dunno man, those FS1R filters to me sound really good (same ones as in AN1x), especially considering they are from first generation of VAs. Yammie really did some things right there, back in the day. Who knows what, but dunno... everything just sounds really pleasant. Sure, don't expect deep modeling of non-linearities, but on its own merits, it's a great and flexible filter.

That said, I really need to give more time to that blue box. :) The whole formant sequencing concept is something I never saw replicated in this manner in any plugin. But yeah, it's not for the faint of heart....
I never liked the AN1x. I remember that specifically back when they were new. I think that the Nords did a better job. I bought the NM1 back then. Now, I didn't think that the Nord Modular trumped my analog stuff, but the flexibility was amazing and that was worth a lot to me at the time. I didn't really like anything that was coming out of plugins for nearly a decade. To be fair, I wasn't doing any music at all for quite a while. I'm not saying that they were useless. I picked up my RS7Ks around 2002ish and I used those for a number of years but the filters weren't good then and you had to be careful with them live.
Last edited by ghettosynth on Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KVRAF
21411 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:32 am

Ha, fair dos. We all like different things. I gotta say I miss my AN1x...

KVRist
88 posts since 24 Oct, 2015

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:14 pm

ViolentAshes91 wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:26 am
bnz wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:12 pm
I'm curious why Yamaha isn't doing a legacy synth VST collection like Roland or Korg are doing. There are some old Yamaha synth models that I would buy instantly if they were released as a VST similar (or hopefully better) than the Korg ones.
Great point. Don't Yamaha own Steinberg? Why not get Steinberg to do some Emulations?
It’s so frustrating because they could easily do this but choose not to. They already have a great free AN1x style synth in an iPhone app called Yamaha Synth Book. And my favorite FM-synth, FM Essentials, is also an app from them, but you can’t buy it, only unlock it with their hardware. It works as an audio unit on iOS, which is great, but for some reason they limit you to one instance. They are sitting on so much great code but choose not to let people have it.

KVRist
43 posts since 24 Jul, 2006

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:19 pm

Dalle wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:14 pm
...

Yamaha Synth Book. And my favorite FM-synth, FM Essentials, is also an app from them, but you can’t buy it, only unlock it with their hardware.

....
They appear to have unrestricted them, since I was just able to install and use both without any request for unlocking them, for free.

Still, iOS is a terrible platform for synths IMO, even though I have about a dozen. It'd be nice if they were available in a more usable form.

KVRist
316 posts since 7 Jan, 2007

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:38 pm

Just putting it out there but by far the most approachable fm synth I’ve used hardware or software is the Yamaha Reface DX. Sure it’s got a laughable number of preset slots, small keys, and it’s 4-op. But I think they did a fantastic job at making fm synthesis fun and relatively easy by keeping it simple and easy to program. I highly recommend it

KVRist
88 posts since 24 Oct, 2015

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:50 pm

NikkiA wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:19 pm
Dalle wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:14 pm
...

Yamaha Synth Book. And my favorite FM-synth, FM Essentials, is also an app from them, but you can’t buy it, only unlock it with their hardware.

....
They appear to have unrestricted them, since I was just able to install and use both without any request for unlocking them, for free.

Still, iOS is a terrible platform for synths IMO, even though I have about a dozen. It'd be nice if they were available in a more usable form.
You need to unlock FM Essentials to save patches. I find iOS pretty good these days, using Drambo as a DAW and loading synths as audio units.

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KVRAF
4018 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:04 pm

THe closest thing to an fs1r in software is tranzistow ( except the formant stuff) , especially with the new skirt parameters , and the already gorgeous sounding filters .
Since tranzistow is complex and powerfull ,it needs dedication and a few braincells to operate it .
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KVRist
88 posts since 24 Oct, 2015

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:59 pm

How is the formant stuff on FS1R done exactly? Is it bandpass filters, windowed sync or something else?

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KVRAF
1851 posts since 12 Jan, 2019

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:41 pm

"Have you ever noticed how anyone driving faster than you is a [jerk] and anyone driving slower than you is a moron?" - George Carlin

KVRAF
3168 posts since 2 Jul, 2005

Post Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:02 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:32 am
Ha, fair dos. We all like different things. I gotta say I miss my AN1x...
I do too. It was a great controller as well. I had 2 and the little groove box version yamaha made back when I played live often and used hardware for most tasks. I'd love to see a real emulation of the an1x. I only ever played with other people's sounds (at friends' studios) on the fs1r and I never heard anything that made me feel a real need for it. I'd be curious to see what the actual implementation is in there. The vocal type sounds definitely did cool stuff, but many of the sounds were fairly standard fm.
Don't F**K with Mr. Zero.

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KVRist
202 posts since 2 Feb, 2005 from UK

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:15 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:32 am
Ha, fair dos. We all like different things. I gotta say I miss my AN1x...
I only miss two hardware synths I've owned - the FS1R and the ESQ1, ED is correct the FS1R had a lovely end-result nearly every time I used it...
VST/AU Developer for Hire

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KVRAF
18493 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:07 am

ghettosynth wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:40 am
Anyway, I'm forever disappointed in modern FM software synths because they insist on being clones. Artur1a didn't have the vision to stretch beyond some basic modifications of the DX7. I think that FM programming is still too unapproachable for the masses and therein lies the rub. If getting the most out of it requires programming, then the dramatic increase in programming complexity beyond six operators means that most users will view it as a preset box. I think that the modern variants capture this idea and try to simplify how a sound can be evolved with complex modulation with that big ass mondo knob, or whatever Yamahaha calls it. I've contemplated getting a modern Yamahaha workstation, the feeling usually passes quickly.

Depending on your interests, the best alternatives at the moment are either one of the aforementioned FM synths, Reakt0r, or modulars like Baz1lle. Even Artuira's Synclavier is interesting for some sounds. Each has strengths and weaknesses depending on what your sound goal is. I think for most of those pads in the videos, layering up synths like padshop, romplers, and VA synths will get you there and there is little point to FM synthesis for static sounds like that.

I'm also generally not thrilled with the state of FM synthesis. How many versions of the DX7 are we gonna get? And 8 operators? I cannot even visualize what to do with 8 operators. It gets too complicated.

My 2 favorite FM synths are Bazille and the Elektron Digitone. Bazille is really something different and the Digitone is a simplified 4 operator FM synth that is pretty easy to make interesting sounds with.

The new Korg OPSix looks interesting as a hardware FM synth because it does stuff like Ring Mod, Filter FM and Wavefolding along with the using FM and has some decent filter models. I haven't tried it, but it also might be a pretty interface for hands on FM design.

bnz
KVRist
82 posts since 12 Mar, 2004

Post Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:14 am

I agree, most FM plugins are not very unique. Most of them even stop with four operators or they are DX7 clones.

I'm not sure though whether I agree that 8 operators are possibly too much. I've never had the FS1R, but I find 6 operators to be manageable as mostly, you don't do more than stacks of 3 or 4 operators. If you have 3 3-stacks in parallel, you are working already with 9 operators. So depending on how you program the sound, you can run out of operators pretty quickly, espcially if you have stacks in parallel for layering. I agree though that the usefulness of those 5 or 6-stack algorithms is kind of limited. At least the amount of people who can do something useful with them is probably rather small. But looking at the algorithm sheet of the FS1r, I'd say that most of them actually look kind of usable if you exclude some odd ones like algorithm 66 or 37 which I suspect were just included because they could.

Here is my concrete wish list for some 6+ op VST FM synth (in addition to the typical DX7 capabilities):

- freely configurable algorithms
- envelopes with loops / msegs
- custom carrier waveform
- operators with at least two inputs for modulation
- sample-based operator modulation (with custom waveforms)
- multiple feedback loops (at least three) per algorithm where source and destination operators can be freely specified
- fs1r like formant filters

Once we have that, we're starting to get somewhere near the capabilities we've had back in the 90s with the SY77/SY99 with AFM ;-) Personally, I'm hoping to see these features one day either in Halion or Falcon to be able to mix them up with other syntheses and sampling. I'm just not very optimistic that it'll happen at all. It didn't happen the last 20 years. So I have my SY77 still around, but the lack of voices (only 16) can be pretty annoying sometimes.
Last edited by bnz on Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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