RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
sircuit
KVRian
677 posts since 15 Jul, 2016

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:37 am

clipnotic wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:10 am
I''m using Omnisphere, too and there you can load single preset layers in 8 layer slots and build multi sets with them so I can load a presets bass and a preset arp and so on.
While Omnisphere has OSC's A to D, you can consider that Rapid is having 8 (triple) oscs (confusingly named as layers) from A to H and that's all (no multi outs, no midi channel routing, no true multilayering).

I say "confusingly" because often time this number of oscs is simply overkill and is somehow "inviting" to think true multilayer (like omnisphere) and leads to frustration.

Also, I'm not at all for "one preset does it all" kind of strategy because you simply can't get inside (any) the synth the processing required for releasable music. So when I use Rapid, I pretty much use 1 layer, and maybe more when programming pads (and I add various layers of movement).

Paradoxically, lately I found myself staying away from Rapid and Avenger and go for Diva, Serum and Ableton's own instruments (and Falcon, for it's freaking awesome envelopes, but I literally go with the timer on the desk, I set 10-20-30 minutes and at the contdown I go with whatever sound I have so far) - I find that "limited" synths drastically (I mean hours less!) improve my workflow as I don't get lost in "endless possibilities".

So yeah, while a synth may be a "sound designer's heaven" it's also a music producer's ultimate procrastination tool :)

clipnotic
KVRist
55 posts since 19 Sep, 2007 from Germany

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:13 am

Yes, you're right and you understand what I mean! :tu:

Of course for programing Rapid is really great and sounds very good, it is a good synth with great features! And I'm programing sounds, too and don't use only presets. But you have to program your own layers again and again, too if you want use it for another "multi" because you can't save your own layers, too. And that's not really "rapid", right? :D

I built me a workaround for that in a DAW template. There are 8 instances of Rapid routed to a little midi plugin and my keys are routed to that plugin. That works okay but is fiddly ..
My english is not the best, feel free to correct me! :wink:

recursive one
KVRAF
4188 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:35 am

Well, I've made a lot of various sounds in Rapid but I have to say I still don't understand the purpose of 8 layers. I basically use a second layer when I need more oscillators or filters but I never used more than two. I could use more, e.g. when I need a really big, well... layered sound or if I want to use Rapid as a drum machine but I think for this purpose each layer would need a separate output into DAW. Rapid's effects are good for sound design but getting a finished mix-ready sound still requires external processing.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

User avatar
parawave
KVRist
278 posts since 15 Mar, 2016 from Germany

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:40 am

clipnotic wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:13 am
Yes, you're right and you understand what I mean! :tu:

Of course for programing Rapid is really great and sounds very good, it is a good synth with great features! And I'm programing sounds, too and don't use only presets. But you have to program your own layers again and again, too if you want use it for another "multi" because you can't save your own layers, too. And that's not really "rapid", right? :D

I built me a workaround for that in a DAW template. There are 8 instances of Rapid routed to a little midi plugin and my keys are routed to that plugin. That works okay but is fiddly ..
I see your problem. I don't know if you missed it, but you can right click the layer buttons, select Copy Layer go into another instance and choose Paste Layer in any of the other layers.

My recommended workflow at the moment: Open two Rapid instances. One to create your new patch, one to browse existing patches. If you browse and find a good layer, just Copy/Paste it in your new patch. This way it's really just a matter of minutes to combine 8 layers.

User avatar
parawave
KVRist
278 posts since 15 Mar, 2016 from Germany

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:27 am

sircuit wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:37 am
I say "confusingly" because often time this number of oscs is simply overkill and is somehow "inviting" to think true multilayer (like omnisphere) and leads to frustration.

Also, I'm not at all for "one preset does it all" kind of strategy because you simply can't get inside (any) the synth the processing required for releasable music. So when I use Rapid, I pretty much use 1 layer, and maybe more when programming pads (and I add various layers of movement).
recursive one wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:35 am
Well, I've made a lot of various sounds in Rapid but I have to say I still don't understand the purpose of 8 layers. [...] Rapid's effects are good for sound design but getting a finished mix-ready sound still requires external processing.
Maybe it's time to give some food for thought.

---

Combine Instances
When looking at projects created with Serum/Sylenth or other one layer synths I often see behavior like this:
Random EDM Producer wrote:"Let's build a melody! Load up this Serum patch. Oh, somehow it's missing power. Okay, add another instance, just for the attack part. Still not big enough? Add another instance for the bass part!"
In the end there are 3 to 4 synth instances to build just one logical instrument. In the perspective of plugins, yes it's 4 independent elements. But from a songs perspective it's only one musical element, like a "melody".

The real workflow killer here is when it comes to saving a complicated setup/patch and reuse it. Especially if you switch DAWs. Getting a 4 instance synth patch from Ableton to FL Studio or vice verca? A click nightmare. With one plugin instance you greatly decouple your dependencies. It's easier to manage and switch out thing.

Further processing
With multiple instances you have to name your synth tracks, group them, probably send them through multiple buses, all with FX. Then join and glue them together to have a coherent sound. With Rapid you move part of this annoying DAW workflow into one instance. This is one of the core concepts of a layer synth.
We build this synth so you can easily polish a sound within one instance. People miss this kind of concept and that's one of the reasons I'm often bewildered by requests like multi-out, since this kind of destroys the whole idea. Really, if someone request a multi-out, it's a sign that they don't embrace the quicker workflow and just want to fiddle around instead of getting their sounds done quick.

Dont just stack things!
In professional EDM production you hardly use one instance with one oscillator to create your main lead. It's always a combination of multiple instances. The thing is, if you continue this idea, you don't even have to think in multiple instance. If you really build your sound from ground up, you can fine tune everything within one instance of Rapid. The 8 layers are not there to use 24 saw oscillators. And they are not there to build complete songs. They are there to combine different dynamic elements. Some good examples are patches like:

Arp/Chronos Trance
Arp/Infinite Crystals
Sequence/Flying Data 1
Sequence/Flying Data 2


Which use multiple elements with different motions. You don't get this in a one layer synth. Yes, you can still build it with multiple instances. But it's a logical musical element. You want to play it in one go. Can you imagine how complicated it would be to get this setup from one project to another, or just cloning it? Here it's just one patch.

Anyway. Maybe be a bit more creative. Yes. It's different, but there are also sounds you just haven't thought about. Think about it: If it's easier to manage complexity, you can simultaneously increase complexity and depth in other parts of your production, since you get more time, right? Not wasting time doing multi-out things unnecessarily mixing everything, even if it's not really necessary. :wink:

chk071
KVRAF
21924 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:34 am

parawave wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:27 am
Combine Instances
When looking at projects created with Serum/Sylenth or other one layer synths I often see behavior like this:
Random EDM Producer wrote:"Let's build a melody! Load up this Serum patch. Oh, somehow it's missing power. Okay, add another instance, just for the attack part. Still not big enough? Add another instance for the bass part!"
In the end there are 3 to 4 synth instances to build just one logical instrument. In the perspective of plugins, yes it's 4 independent elements. But from a songs perspective it's only one musical element, like a "melody".

The real workflow killer here is when it comes to saving a complicated setup/patch and reuse it. Especially if you switch DAWs. Getting a 4 instance synth patch from Ableton to FL Studio or vice verca? A click nightmare. With one plugin instance you greatly decouple your dependencies. It's easier to manage and switch out thing.
Maybe. But, when is enough enough? :) Infected Mushroom use about 100 tracks in their tracks, according to some videos i've watched. That'd be about 13 instances of Rapid, if you count it that way. At some point, you will need several instances. So far, for me, synths with layers rather appeared like a gimmick to make a preset a one note song. YMMV. I personally have no use for several layers.

Don't get me wrong, Rapid, or other synths which have layers don't stop to be nice. It's just that it's a thing i don't necessarily need, and which rather complicates than solves things for me. Single patches can become damn complicated with 8 layers. They already can become complicated with a single layer for me, especially when you have mod matrices.

User avatar
parawave
KVRist
278 posts since 15 Mar, 2016 from Germany

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:46 am

chk071 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:34 am
parawave wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:27 am
Combine Instances
When looking at projects created with Serum/Sylenth or other one layer synths I often see behavior like this:
Random EDM Producer wrote:"Let's build a melody! Load up this Serum patch. Oh, somehow it's missing power. Okay, add another instance, just for the attack part. Still not big enough? Add another instance for the bass part!"
In the end there are 3 to 4 synth instances to build just one logical instrument. In the perspective of plugins, yes it's 4 independent elements. But from a songs perspective it's only one musical element, like a "melody".

The real workflow killer here is when it comes to saving a complicated setup/patch and reuse it. Especially if you switch DAWs. Getting a 4 instance synth patch from Ableton to FL Studio or vice verca? A click nightmare. With one plugin instance you greatly decouple your dependencies. It's easier to manage and switch out thing.
Maybe. But, when is enough enough? :) Infected Mushroom use about 100 tracks in their tracks, according to some videos i've watched. That'd be about 13 instances of Rapid, if you count it that way. At some point, you will need several instances.
Yes of course. But it's a matter of having things like:

Sub Bass
Mid Bass
High Bass
Lead Mid
Lead Stereo
Lead Noise
Lead Attack

Together with wasting a bunch of mixer tracks.

Or having it like this:
Bass
Lead

Only using two tracks with slight processing. The original purpose of a mixer :D

You absolutely need multiple instances for a song. Again, it's not about combining Lead, Bass, Chords into one instance of Rapid, to create a one finger preset. It's more about combining 4 lead layers into one instance to make your life easier. e.g. Automating the filter cutoff is now a matter of one automation track instead of a more complicated setup. That's only one example. Same thing for MIDI/Note or arpeggio arrangements.

Soundplex
KVRist
231 posts since 22 Sep, 2015

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:47 am

Please also don't forget that with simple single instances I can combine the properties, features and character of multiple different synths. And each of these presets can be combined with multiple other ones in multiple projects. No need to load a multilayer plugin each time (where I still think that we pay for extra layers in terms of CPU or workflow though we might not use them), search for the preset, copy/paste the single layer or disable all other ones etc.

recursive one
KVRAF
4188 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:06 am

@Parawave I do see your point (and I think we actually have discussed this before at some point) but still haivng a multi-output as an option would be great. What if I need to filter out a very specific frequency with a narrow Q from one layer of a multi-layered lead, or sidechain one of these layers from a snare, or use some cool sounding external chorus or phaser on one of the layers?

Maybe it's just me, actually in my genre (psytrance) I don't often use layered sounds. Also I only use one DAW :)
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

sircuit
KVRian
677 posts since 15 Jul, 2016

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:23 am

@parawave when creating a lead, we go for a main sound and then if we feel the need to beef it up, we add layers, agree.

Thing is: with 3 serums and a diva I can actually browse for (my own) presets in each instance and quickly see if they fit together or not.

With rapid I have to design in a different layer my own previously designed presets because I can’t add new layers from presets. I will still end up with using multiple single layer rapid instances so I can properly browse and try them.

Yes, I can eventually gather all the layers into one preset but the song is done already (from separate tracks layers) so unless I’m a sound designer preparing a pack why do it? I will not use that sound in a different song either.

Also I have my preferred fx and can’t use them in a multilayer rapid scenario without multioutputs.

HcDoom
KVRian
1109 posts since 18 Feb, 2012

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:47 am

For those who oppose layers, than just simply build your lead in one layer, load another instance of Rapid and add new preset to first layer and experiment as much as you want if you dont want to use multiple layers. So many whiny grannies around here...

User avatar
parawave
KVRist
278 posts since 15 Mar, 2016 from Germany

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:49 am

Soundplex wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:47 am
Please also don't forget that with simple single instances I can combine the properties, features and character of multiple different synths. And each of these presets can be combined with multiple other ones in multiple projects. No need to load a multilayer plugin each time (where I still think that we pay for extra layers in terms of CPU or workflow though we might not use them), search for the preset, copy/paste the single layer or disable all other ones etc.
Yeah, no one stops you from doing that. Matter of taste. Personally I'm not a advocate of these so called "characteristics". Something like: I need a cold digital sound, I pick Serum. I need a warm analogue sound, I pick Diva. Doesn't really make sense to me. If I want a warm/cold/modern/vintage sound, I just shape the sound in Rapid (or any other synth) until it sounds like I want.
recursive one wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:06 am
What if I need to filter out a very specific frequency with a narrow Q from one layer of a multi-layered lead, or sidechain one of these layers from a snare, or use some cool sounding external chorus or phaser on one of the layers?
Now my thought here is, why do you want to filter a specific narrow Q :D
If it's a vocal, or a pre-recorded sample I guess it's needed in some cases. But you are at the basic synthesis stage. You can still fix it by adjusting your source. Not a fan of fiddling around with EQ spikes and doing surgery stuff like that. Mostly a waste of time. In an ideal production environment, all kinds of producers will advice you to fix your source material. No to add more and more processing.

About the external FX thing: What if you want to apply your favorite chorus to the second oscillator of Serum? What if you want to put the chorus before Divas FX chain. Doesn't work, since it's not intended to be used in that way, right? Same for Rapid. Just to be clear, you don't have to use up all layers. Sometimes there is no way around it. And then it's probably easier to just mute the fx and use one instance. You can decide. Modularize everything, increase complexity. Or use a fixed pipeline, simplify the chain.
sircuit wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:23 am
Thing is: with 3 serums and a diva I can actually browse for (my own) presets in each instance and quickly see if they fit together or not.

With rapid I have to design in a different layer my own previously designed presets because I can’t add new layers from presets. I will still end up with using multiple single layer rapid instances so I can properly browse and try them.
You can by copy and paste them. At some point you have to browse and preview them before you can combine them. A necessity. If you have a quicker way to combine a multi-layer patch into another multi-layer patch, I will listen ; )
Alternatively you can browse a single layer patch and build on top of that. It's still a synth and not a ROMpler, nothing is instantly ready, and just throwing layers together will not give you a complete sound. Same as throwing together a bunch of synths, which will not magically become a song.
sircuit wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:23 am
Also I have my preferred fx and can’t use them in a multilayer rapid scenario without multioutputs.
You either have a multi-layer patch and view it as a single atomic unit. Polishing things inside of Rapid. Or you use a multi-instance approach, using external processing. Using both at the same time is kind of nonsensical. Why would you combine a sound in Rapid, if you then split it again. I would say, both are valid methods and it purely depends on the situation. If you really need any special external FX, then use just one layer in that particular case, nothing against it. :wink:

recursive one
KVRAF
4188 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:11 am

parawave wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:49 am
Now my thought here is, why do you want to filter a specific narrow Q :D
Psytrance bass, you often need to boost some harmonics and cut others - that's not fixing problems stage but the basic tone shaping stage. And you may want to add a hipassed top layer, e.g., with bitcrushing, chorus and little delay (Vini Vici style bass). That would be a good example of a "musical element" and would be perfectly doable in Rapid if I could process the main bass layer with a high quality linear phase eq displaying the exact frequenices.

Other example may be a lead consisisting of a lower and an upper part, you may want to cut some freqs with a mid/side eq from the lower layer to make a room for the bass upper harmonics, but without touching the upper layer.

I'm not agaist layers at all, though I don't really use them much. But I think I would actually use them as intended if I could process them separately in my DAW. As far as I can't I will just add two Rapids into the project.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

sircuit
KVRian
677 posts since 15 Jul, 2016

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:41 am

parawave wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:49 am
If you have a quicker way to combine a multi-layer patch into another multi-layer patch, I will listen ; )
I try, don't stone me :)

- a dedicated toggle in synth's settings to enable "stacking mode".
- with stacking disabled, everything is as before - double cliking a preset loads and overwrites the existing one
- with stacking anabled, every time a user loads a preset and does not change any parameters (jus presses play for preview) again everything as before

- with stacking anabled, every time a user loads a preset and changes sometihing (knob, deactivates a layer, any type of change) mark an internal flag with stacking mode enabled for current preset
- now with this flag marked, when the user double clicks to load a new preset, offer option: overwrite the current or load it into the first available disabled layer(s).
- maybe matrix slots would not be enough, same thing: display a message
- macro knobs (to map or to discard them) could be a real issue
- many other completely overlooked by me things could be an issue and all the above would prove to be impossible

If in a firstly-loaded preset I disable some layers, make them available for new presets to overwrite them.
If a preset is huge and not enough layers are available, just popup a message or check if you can load just the layers with active OSCs (so discard the "returns" type of layers).
...and many other things I couldnt think of as I don't have the experience of a developer :)

User avatar
Touch The Universe
KVRAF
3834 posts since 2 Oct, 2008

Re: RAPID Synthesizer | Preview screenshots of upcoming version

Post Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:57 am

Woooh! I for one would never question why rapid has 8 layers. It is a very high virtue and love it so much in large part solely because of this embedded power.
High Quality Soundsets for Lush-101 | Hive | Electra 2 | Diversion | Halion | Largo | Rapid | Dune II | Thorn | and Spire.
http://www.touch-the-universe.com/

Return to “Instruments”