HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
Paree
KVRist
340 posts since 21 Jun, 2015 from India

Post Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:57 am

WOK wrote:
starflakeprj wrote:I wouldn't say it's ridiculous, or do you count on selling only one copy? 50 copies and you have reach the break-even point (not counting the actual work/time). It's like saying to be able to use a €30 plugin, I first must pay €600 (computer) + €200 (DAW).
This is a strange comparison. Then you could also count the apartment I am living in, the food, my internet connection, as part of the development costs....

As a small developer, selling 50 copies is sometimes not easy already. Juce is overpriced, and a "per plugin fee" for HISE is more than strange.
 
Agree. And you must sell 50 copies to actually get your money back. So small devs can actually forget about making some money with their work. It is affordable if its a one time license payment rather than per plugin fees.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVmlgT ... subscriber
Waveform 11, Synth1, Zebralette, TAL Noisemaker, Helm, Firebird (Legacy) and Surge.

User avatar
starflakeprj
KVRAF
2140 posts since 28 Feb, 2015

Post Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:39 am

Paree wrote:
WOK wrote:
starflakeprj wrote:I wouldn't say it's ridiculous, or do you count on selling only one copy? 50 copies and you have reach the break-even point (not counting the actual work/time). It's like saying to be able to use a €30 plugin, I first must pay €600 (computer) + €200 (DAW).
This is a strange comparison. Then you could also count the apartment I am living in, the food, my internet connection, as part of the development costs....

As a small developer, selling 50 copies is sometimes not easy already. Juce is overpriced, and a "per plugin fee" for HISE is more than strange.
 
Agree. And you must sell 50 copies to actually get your money back. So small devs can actually forget about making some money with their work. It is affordable if its a one time license payment rather than per plugin fees.
I have a friend who is developing assets for Unity, and they are pretty genre specific too (space). Still he has sold a total of 4000-5000 copies since the release (3-4 years), where all updates are free. If you cannot sell even 50 copies of a plugin you have developed it's a pretty lousy plugin. A Unity license used to cost about 1500 usd (even though you don't have to have that license to create this type of asset).

So no, I still don't think 1500 usd is ridiculous for the licenses you need to develop a plugin using HISE.

Edit: Didn't read it was per plugin though, which is pretty weird, yes. But only the HISE license I guess?
i9-10900K | 128GB DDR4 | RTX 3090 | Arturia AudioFuse/KeyLab mkII/SparkLE | PreSonus ATOM/ATOM SQ | Studio One | Reason | Bitwig Studio | Reaper | Renoise | FL Studio | ~900 VSTs | 300+ REs

bigcat1969
KVRian
1367 posts since 30 Jul, 2013

Post Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:11 am

Well Maize is a one time 99 buck charge and Kontakt costs about 200 bucks on sale and there are no other charges for developer's period. So not sure this replacement is cost effective for most Indy developers who charge for products. Of course Kontakt player libraries are another can of worms...

Again before this replaces Kontakt can it export an instrument? Has anyone made an instrument? Can I download an instrument? Its not a replacement until someone makes something in it.

I'm not saying it won't be a great replacement in the future, just right now I've tried it, the install was broken and it exported nothing. Make a working product and a tutorial and I'll make freebies for it. Which doesn't cost if I understand correctly.
Image

User avatar
WOK
KVRAF
2116 posts since 24 Feb, 2004 from Germany

Post Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:00 pm

starflakeprj wrote:I have a friend who is developing assets for Unity, and they are pretty genre specific too (space). Still he has sold a total of 4000-5000 copies since the release (3-4 years), where all updates are free. If you cannot sell even 50 copies of a plugin you have developed it's a pretty lousy plugin.
What a crappy comment.
What has Unity to do with the overfilled VST plugin market?
I don't want to hijack this thread, but let's take this
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/sam-by-wok/details
and this
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/clockwo ... ok/details
just as a quick example.
Have a test with it. Do you think it's "lousy"?   And then guess, how many I sold (for less than 40€) before I had set them free......
 
ImageImage

Chrisboy2000
KVRist
48 posts since 21 Apr, 2008 from Germany

Post Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:26 pm

So it couldn't be much further from being freeware !!
HISE is free. You can download it for free, play around with it for free, you can even export your sample libraries as iOS app and run it on an iPod touch or Linux environment withouch spending one single dollar. However if you start making money based on open source software it is more than fair to recompensate anyone that helped you along the way.

I opted for the per plugin fee because unlike JUCE, my user base is much smaller so a company licence model would simply not cover the development costs. But as I stated before, I am ready to offer Early Bird specials for every developer that wants to start developing with HISE to get the ball rolling.

Also, for the lowest budget type of instruments there will be a player plugin that allows you to distribute your libraries without any licence fees.

Paree
KVRist
340 posts since 21 Jun, 2015 from India

Post Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:22 pm

Chrisboy2000 wrote:
So it couldn't be much further from being freeware !!
HISE is free. You can download it for free, play around with it for free, you can even export your sample libraries as iOS app and run it on an iPod touch or Linux environment withouch spending one single dollar. However if you start making money based on open source software it is more than fair to recompensate anyone that helped you along the way.

I opted for the per plugin fee because unlike JUCE, my user base is much smaller so a company licence model would simply not cover the development costs. But as I stated before, I am ready to offer Early Bird specials for every developer that wants to start developing with HISE to get the ball rolling.

Also, for the lowest budget type of instruments there will be a player plugin that allows you to distribute your libraries without any licence fees.
That's an other way of thinking. But, if an indie developer want's to develop a commercial product using HISE and isn't sure of the number of copies he'll sell, then looking at the license fees, he'd be scared even to try it. And people who are big in the business will stick onto the things they are using for making plugins.

Although if you make a free player for it and allow users to make libraries for it (and charge a small amount for commercial libraries), It may expand your user base.

More than Kontakt, your main opponent would be maize sampler. And since maize sampler doesn't require a player and is pretty cheap, people would prefer that.

And if you need to expand the user base, you need to provide some tutorials on making instruments (That's the reason nobody has tried it yet). And if you need to expand the user base, you may have to use "Give and Take" Policy. For example, look at Tracktion. They've set the oldest of the three versions of their DAW for free. Many people (incl me) have started using it and even made it their main DAW. And this will cause people to upgrade to latest version when they have money (It's pretty cheap though)

To sum up, if you want to expand your base, you must give something to get something. Maybe a free player with smaller license fee for commercial librariess (if you don't want to reduce price for vsts/ipad products).
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVmlgT ... subscriber
Waveform 11, Synth1, Zebralette, TAL Noisemaker, Helm, Firebird (Legacy) and Surge.

User avatar
SampleScience
KVRAF
4196 posts since 31 Oct, 2004

Post Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:37 am

In the previous version I couldn't load my saved instruments and couldn't export plugins. Anyone tried the latest version on Windows?
starflakeprj wrote:I have a friend who is developing assets for Unity, and they are pretty genre specific too (space). Still he has sold a total of 4000-5000 copies since the release (3-4 years), where all updates are free. If you cannot sell even 50 copies of a plugin you have developed it's a pretty lousy plugin.
The VST plugins market is much smaller that the video games market which is the biggest market of all in the entertainment field (bigger than cinema, music, visual arts, graphic design, etc.). I don't think there's any comparison that can be made here.

As for a license per plugin, I don't think it would work. I'd rather use Maize Sampler, Kontakt and even Reason (with their sample based instrument dev. kit). Plogue offers a similar pricing paradigm than Hise planned pricing and as a dev I don't find it interesting.

Cabbage is very interesting though, and it's a platform that I would see myself using. That and using the iPlug dev. kit could yield good results.

bungle
KVRAF
1780 posts since 12 Mar, 2004

Post Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:48 am

To be fair, if it is £500 per app, it is already a dead platform, it has very little interest on its own forum, and that will dwindle even further if that ridiculous pricing scheme is used, Kontakt already has a foothold and a standalone plugin while nice, is doubtful to sell much more than a Kontakt instrument.
If your plugin is a C++ creation, please don't say so.
If it is, pop round Marcos, he has just bought you a Mac to port it.

User avatar
starflakeprj
KVRAF
2140 posts since 28 Feb, 2015

Post Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:11 am

SampleScience wrote:In the previous version I couldn't load my saved instruments and couldn't export plugins. Anyone tried the latest version on Windows?
starflakeprj wrote:I have a friend who is developing assets for Unity, and they are pretty genre specific too (space). Still he has sold a total of 4000-5000 copies since the release (3-4 years), where all updates are free. If you cannot sell even 50 copies of a plugin you have developed it's a pretty lousy plugin.
The VST plugins market is much smaller that the video games market which is the biggest market of all in the entertainment field (bigger than cinema, music, visual arts, graphic design, etc.). I don't think there's any comparison that can be made here.

As for a license per plugin, I don't think it would work. I'd rather use Maize Sampler, Kontakt and even Reason (with their sample based instrument dev. kit). Plogue offers a similar pricing paradigm than Hise planned pricing and as a dev I don't find it interesting.

Cabbage is very interesting though, and it's a platform that I would see myself using. That and using the iPlug dev. kit could yield good results.
I'm not sure the market per se is smaller, possibly the piracy have grown stronger in the "music producing" market though. The example I presented, is one product, in a very limited genre, which is space. How many people are coding their own space game, comparing to producing music?

When posting my first post, I didn't realize there was a £/€/$500 fee per plugin though, I thought it was a one time fee.
i9-10900K | 128GB DDR4 | RTX 3090 | Arturia AudioFuse/KeyLab mkII/SparkLE | PreSonus ATOM/ATOM SQ | Studio One | Reason | Bitwig Studio | Reaper | Renoise | FL Studio | ~900 VSTs | 300+ REs

Chrisboy2000
KVRist
48 posts since 21 Apr, 2008 from Germany

Post Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:23 am

I am currently thinking about these licence conditions:

- 500€ - 700€ per desktop plugin / app (with a low-cost option for low retail prices)
- 100€ - 200€ per iOS app
- Early Bird adopters will get a remarkable discount on either their first projects or in general.
I never said these are the final licensing fees. It is the first draft of what I think would be fair, considered the fact that you pay 10k for a KONTAKT player library.

Also, please don't forget that you will be able to release completely for free as soon as the HISE Player is released. These licence fees are just for people who want to release their own plugin.

User avatar
Architeuthis
KVRAF
3115 posts since 28 Jan, 2006 from Phoenix, AZ

Post Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:28 am

Chris, you are not being frank enough.

Are you saying that an indie developer will be able to make money with his product as long as he doesn't care to have a custom standalone plugin, but rather create a sample library that plugs into the "HISE standard plugin"?

Essentially, small developers will have a kontakt-like platform to work off of and make money with, while larger developers can make their own "kontakt". Is this what you mean?

User avatar
SampleScience
KVRAF
4196 posts since 31 Oct, 2004

Post Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:45 am

Chrisboy2000 wrote:
I am currently thinking about these licence conditions:

- 500€ - 700€ per desktop plugin / app (with a low-cost option for low retail prices)
- 100€ - 200€ per iOS app
- Early Bird adopters will get a remarkable discount on either their first projects or in general.
I never said these are the final licensing fees. It is the first draft of what I think would be fair, considered the fact that you pay 10k for a KONTAKT player library.

Also, please don't forget that you will be able to release completely for free as soon as the HISE Player is released. These licence fees are just for people who want to release their own plugin.
Does it mean that if I want to create sample libraries for Hise, it will be free, but if I want to turn it into a plugin then it'll cost me a license fee? What would prevent users to buy Hise instruments sample libraries and turn them into plugin themselves then (for their own personal use)?

If this is possible, small indie dev could also advertise their library as been plugin with the added process of loading the instrument in Hise and turning it into a plugin. Wouldn't be a problem for dev who would sell the plugin directly to be cut around so easily?

I love the idea of Kontakt having competition, I'm just trying to understand the process here. :)

Chrisboy2000
KVRist
48 posts since 21 Apr, 2008 from Germany

Post Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:24 pm

Essentially, small developers will have a kontakt-like platform to work off of and make money with, while larger developers can make their own "kontakt". Is this what you mean?
Yes. The HISE Player however will not be free, but will be sold at a rather low price (~20€).
What would prevent users to buy Hise instruments sample libraries and turn them into plugin themselves then (for their own personal use)?
Well as an end user, you can either go through the hassles of reverse engineering the HISE Player library file back to the HISE project, setting up a C++ compiler for your OS, installing all third party dependencies (registering at Steinberg for their VST SDK / Intel for the IPP) and try to successfully compile the plugin or you just spend the 20 bucks to get a system which is basically plug and play.

Also as developer you won't have a chance of protecting your stuff against piracy this way (I am trying to come up with a simple licence key protection scheme for HISE Player libraries that prevents at least casual piracy).

Cinebient
KVRAF
5131 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Post Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:31 pm

Chrisboy2000 wrote:
Essentially, small developers will have a kontakt-like platform to work off of and make money with, while larger developers can make their own "kontakt". Is this what you mean?
Yes. The HISE Player however will not be free, but will be sold at a rather low price (~20€).
What would prevent users to buy Hise instruments sample libraries and turn them into plugin themselves then (for their own personal use)?
Well as an end user, you can either go through the hassles of reverse engineering the HISE Player library file back to the HISE project, setting up a C++ compiler for your OS, installing all third party dependencies (registering at Steinberg for their VST SDK / Intel for the IPP) and try to successfully compile the plugin or you just spend the 20 bucks to get a system which is basically plug and play.

Also as developer you won't have a chance of protecting your stuff against piracy this way (I am trying to come up with a simple licence key protection scheme for HISE Player libraries that prevents at least casual piracy).
Will there be an iOS version as well for the player at least. Also piracy there might be not such a problem.

Chrisboy2000
KVRist
48 posts since 21 Apr, 2008 from Germany

Post Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:35 pm

Will there be an iOS version as well for the player at least. Also piracy there might be not such a problem.
Yes. Although it may be a bit tricky to adapt to the AppStore conditions but I can imagine making contracts with 3rd party developers to offer their libraries as In-App purchases.

Return to “Instruments”