Getting Hive?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
ghettosynth
KVRAF
12083 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Tue May 30, 2017 3:33 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Fleer wrote: I do find that "fatness" and "presence" in Spire, not in Hive.
I find the 'fatness' and 'presence' in Hive and not Spire... it is good there are different synths for different peoples aesthetic preferences
Yeah, even though I'm not a Hive fan, once you start talking about Spire and friends, I think that the edge goes to Hive.

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Fleer
KVRAF
4697 posts since 23 Aug, 2014 from Boston/Cambridge

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Tue May 30, 2017 3:44 pm

Edgy indeed. Not creamy. Love creamy.

musiclover55547
KVRist
330 posts since 21 Apr, 2015 from United States

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Tue May 30, 2017 4:39 pm

Urs wrote:
That said, I've looked at Spire the other day. It's got some cool concepts. The oscillators are great in the way that a lot can be achieved with very few controls. The steppers are interesting, but they are not MSEGs. IMHO they are too focussed on quantized modulations.

I always kept the option to add MSEGs to Hive (or ACE/Bazille) in the back of my head, but not before Zebra 3 is finished - because they will be completely reworked. The single biggest reason to do Zebra 3 *is* the MSEGs, which will be unified with oscillator waveforms and Mapper shapes.

I'm certainly not questioning your knowledge or authority, but from an end-user's perspective, the MSEGs in Dune 2 & Alchemy 2 often involve modulating the filter cutoff. The same goes for Spire's Steppers, so I'm not certain the difference between what an MSEG actually does vis a vis what Spire's Stepper does.

In Dune 2, for instance, the MSEG (Length) can be spread over up to 32 bars via pull down menu. Spire's Stepper is a fixed size as far as screen real-estate goes, but the user determines how many steps there are (Start - End.) Thus Dune 2 can have the MSEG Length be as high as 32 at varying rates, Spire can have the length up to 16 at varying rates.

The Alchemy 2 MSEGs act in the same way and can be quite complex. Other Targets include Volume, Pitch, and various FX Parameters, all of which Spire's Steppers can modulate.

I'm honestly curious how an MSEG differs from "Quantized Modulation." Perhaps it is semantics?
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***************************************
* AKAI, KRK, UAD, Softube Vol 1, Soundtoys
* Live, Logic, Serum, Spire, Dune 2, Hive

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Urs
u-he
24306 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 12:11 am

musiclover55547 wrote:I'm honestly curious how an MSEG differs from "Quantized Modulation." Perhaps it is semantics?
Well, the first time the word MSEG was used to my knowledge was in Zebra 1.x, hence, my definition of MSEG is the one you can find in Zebra today (if you google "MSEG multistage envelope generator", chances are high you get Zebra stuff). So I don't know what others have done with the term, I just hope it isn't being washed out like Arpeggiators :clown:

By quantized modulation I previously meant that you can not move the points in Spire's Steppers in x direction. You can only set values and/or curves (y-direction) and you can set ratchets (sub divisions of a step with a repetitive shape).

In Zebra's MSEGs however you can accumulate points in clusters as close or far as you want, allowing for very detailed control over timing behavior. You can quantize the modulation in both x and y axis, but that's just editing aids.

Also note that in our ModMatrix system, any modulator can target (almost) any knob on the synth, not just a handful of selected modulation sources. Synths like Spire may have more features by the books, but Hive makes up for that by its modulation paradigm. Try to control Spire's Stepper timing by an LFO. No problem modulating the sequencer gate length whatsoever in Hive.

recursive one
KVRAF
4510 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 12:28 am

Urs wrote:Try to control Spire's Stepper timing by an LFO. No problem modulating the sequencer gate length whatsoever in Hive.
I think Hive's Sequencer gate length corresponds to Arp gate length in Spire. I'm not at my DAW at the moment but I believe Spire's Arp gate can be chosen as a modulation target or be automated in a DAW.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

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Urs
u-he
24306 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 1:28 am

recursive one wrote:
Urs wrote:Try to control Spire's Stepper timing by an LFO. No problem modulating the sequencer gate length whatsoever in Hive.
I think Hive's Sequencer gate length corresponds to Arp gate length in Spire. I'm not at my DAW at the moment but I believe Spire's Arp gate can be chosen as a modulation target or be automated in a DAW.
Well, that's my point earlier... Arp != Sequencer (Zebra's guilt as well, I presume), and the one in Hive can be used for modulations without affecting pitch.

(that said, Spire has a lot of targets, much more comprehensive than Sylenth fwiw - does the Envelope self mod trick work?)

recursive one
KVRAF
4510 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 1:34 am

Urs wrote:
recursive one wrote:
Urs wrote:Try to control Spire's Stepper timing by an LFO. No problem modulating the sequencer gate length whatsoever in Hive.
I think Hive's Sequencer gate length corresponds to Arp gate length in Spire. I'm not at my DAW at the moment but I believe Spire's Arp gate can be chosen as a modulation target or be automated in a DAW.
Well, that's my point earlier... Arp != Sequencer (Zebra's guilt as well, I presume), and the one in Hive can be used for modulations without affecting pitch.
I think the arp in Spire amy be a modulation source without affecting pitch as well. The arp is available in the matrix as a mod source and I think in this scenario if the arp is switched off it will still affect the target parameter(s).
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

musiclover55547
KVRist
330 posts since 21 Apr, 2015 from United States

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 2:22 am

Urs wrote:
musiclover55547 wrote:I'm honestly curious how an MSEG differs from "Quantized Modulation." Perhaps it is semantics?

By quantized modulation I previously meant that you can not move the points in Spire's Steppers in x direction. You can only set values and/or curves (y-direction) and you can set ratchets (sub divisions of a step with a repetitive shape).

In Zebra's MSEGs however you can accumulate points in clusters as close or far as you want, allowing for very detailed control over timing behavior. You can quantize the modulation in both x and y axis, but that's just editing aids.

Also note that in our ModMatrix system, any modulator can target (almost) any knob on the synth, not just a handful of selected modulation sources. Synths like Spire may have more features by the books, but Hive makes up for that by its modulation paradigm. Try to control Spire's Stepper timing by an LFO. No problem modulating the sequencer gate length whatsoever in Hive.
I believe that's the difference: in Spire, the Stepper can modulate any parameter as a Source, not just those I listed, but it cannot be a Target. Interestingly, the ARP Step can be a Source with the ability to modulate any Parameter, as recursive one mentioned. The ARP Gate or Swing can be a Target that can be modulated by LFOs, ENVs, the Steppers, etc.

In Dune 2, the MSEG's Rate can be a Target -- however, in Alchemy 2, it cannot; this causes further confusion. I did not realize Zebra was the first to have MSEGs. Serum's LFOs are MSEG-like (if not essentially MSEGs that can take on traditional LFO Shapes.) They can be Sources or Targets.

Thanks for your reply.
***************************************
* AKAI, KRK, UAD, Softube Vol 1, Soundtoys
* Live, Logic, Serum, Spire, Dune 2, Hive

Dasheesh
KVRAF
3701 posts since 22 Nov, 2012

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 5:05 am

Urs wrote:
(that said, Spire has a lot of targets, much more comprehensive than Sylenth fwiw - does the Envelope self mod trick work?)

I think I was the one to bring that up on this forum first. I couldn't wrap my head around what was going on there. If you assign env. 1 to env. 1 it gets real weird. How can an envelope over drive itself? Isn't it already at 100%?

Dasheesh
KVRAF
3701 posts since 22 Nov, 2012

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 5:10 am

I said it from the beginning. With spire you need to disconnect the hard wire from envelope one to the amp because of its modular nature. You also have to be EXTREMLY careful with "optimization" with spire because the oscillators can be used as a mod source. It gets FILTHY real fast when you do that though, especially with with envelope one hard wired to the amp... see?

Dasheesh
KVRAF
3701 posts since 22 Nov, 2012

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 5:47 am

Oh yeah, and there's way too much shading going on in that spire GUI. It's distracting.

I'll tell you what I'm experiencing as a hardware guy who went "ITB" a little more then 10 years ago. Hardware was about being as versatile as possible. Hardware synths had pride in being versatile.

These software synths are specializing in one or two things and focusing on it unapologetically. They have an identity. Take Dune2 for instance. It's completely dependent on having as many oscillators going as your system can handle. It's an unapologeticly plastic sound and goes against everything I've ever learned about synthesis and playing a synthesizer... and I'm completely addicted to it. I can't get enough of that sound (GUI is making me go blind though!). It's like tapping your fingers on the strings of a tennis racket.

SPIRE Is about unapologetic POWER. It's the filters. Those are probably the most powerful filters I've ever heard. It makes no apologies for that. Using spire I feel like that guy in the old maxell cassette commercial.

Hive is the most analog like and the most "alive" because of all the velocity stuff and it's the most "playable". It's the most beautiful and delicate. Go with it. If that's what it does... identify it.

Lennard probably was the first to start that trend.

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Fleer
KVRAF
4697 posts since 23 Aug, 2014 from Boston/Cambridge

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 6:06 am

Good points. Those remarkable Spire filters are da shiznit, but I guess Hive is the most versatile.

Dasheesh
KVRAF
3701 posts since 22 Nov, 2012

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 6:37 am

Just hit me is what I really love about Hive are the envelopes. They hit a sweet spot and probably the most satisfying envelopes I know of. Maybe you could add extra stages to the envelopes?

bibz1st
KVRAF
1693 posts since 29 Mar, 2013

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 6:39 am

Dasheesh wrote: Using spire I feel like that guy in the old maxell cassette commercial.
That would be Peter Murphy of Bauhaus fame
Beauty is only skin deep,
Ugliness, however, goes right the way through

Dasheesh
KVRAF
3701 posts since 22 Nov, 2012

Re: Getting Hive?

Post Wed May 31, 2017 6:54 am

bibz1st wrote:
Dasheesh wrote: Using spire I feel like that guy in the old maxell cassette commercial.
That would be Peter Murphy of Bauhaus fame

Oh yeah... I do think I heard that once.... anyway

About Hive, two more envelopes, with extra stages, in a third HEX. Make sure they can modulate each other. Add more types of constants to overdrive everything. This would take advantage of Hive's fantastic envelopes and the modulations they offer. *drops mic*.

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