Programming cymbal sounds, good synths?

[Ah_Dziz]

24DB/octave bandpass filters x2 pulsewidth modulatable oscilators x 2, noise source, and dual sideband am or rm processors x2, adsr envelopes x6, modulatable amplifiers x4. That'll make most any metal noise you could want.

[pdxindy]

Why make such sounds in a synth? I prefer samples for such sounds. They include the initial transient burst that is hard to get from a synth.

The sample is static. Samples do not modulate the same as synthesis.

[exmatproton]

Why make such sounds in a synth? I prefer samples for such sounds. They include the initial transient burst that is hard to get from a synth.

If you want 'a cymbal', sure. Samples will do just fine. However, i find myself using a synth when i want to change the sound in ways that aren't possible (or not fast or intuitive enough) with a sample. In other occasions i use a sample and resynthesize it (in Harmor for example) for some extra flexibility.

[cron]

Drumaxx, and check some of xoxos' percussion models http://www.xoxos.net/vst/vst.html#percussion

Xoxos has done so much excellent percussion modelling it's unreal.

Star Cym is free and an excellent source of realistic and unrealistic cymbal sounds, while Bong is cheap and covers more 'drum machiney' cymbal sounds with ease. Bong is worth the price for the hi-hat/cymbal engine alone, even though it's only a small sliver of what it can do. Radian can get quite 'cymbally' with extreme settings too.

There's a velocity influence knob under every control in most of his stuff, so it's all really lively and 'playable' too.

[camsr]

This patch is about as close as I've gotten to something "convincing"

Can you post audio? I don't have Polyana on my system.

Maybe later yes, but the patch is more like a melodic noise burst than a cymbal, kinda irritating TBH

[camsr]

xoxos cylinder33 synth is really quite good, I didn't like the bong sound but I'm after realistic cymbals.

[ZaBong69]

Why make such sounds in a synth? I prefer samples for such sounds. They include the initial transient burst that is hard to get from a synth.

Hi,

many producers use synths as modulating the parameters within the synth will create subtle variations which IMHO go a long way to create interest in loops. While most samplers have at least one filter to cut some harmonics, and can modulate pitch, with a synth you can do much more, so no two hits sounds exactly the same. I.E. the effect of modulating the pitch of the modulator in FM can not be replicated within a sampler. Also, it's more fun than searching through 1000 cymbal samples.

But you are right, getting the transient right needs some work. For cymbal synthesis, I'd consider a synth with FM and ring modulation at least, and three oscillators, one of which must be noise. A good comb filter is a big bonus. Low system requirements also... I'd recommend Zebra, because of its Comb filter alone.

[himalaya]

There is a new reason for wanting to make and use synthesised cymbals (and other perc/drum sounds) instead of samples: 5D sounds in MPE compatible synths and controllers.

Here, a sound needs to respond to several dimensions of touch, so if I slide, I would want my cymbal to modulate somehow. It's much more interesting to do that with a synthesised sound since we can get at the very DNA of the sound and mangle it via sliding, gliding or pressing. A sample would need to rely on good effects to achieve a comparable level of sonic transformation. Maybe using Ring-mods, phasers, tuned delays, and similar, would affect the sample in interesting cool ways, but this process relies on having those effects to begin with, whereas, if the sound is synthesized with FM, it is easy to modulate the FM parameters and create a cool new sound via sliding or gliding on an MPE controller. Simply tear the very harmonics of the sound which is not possible with samples alone.

If anyone has access to an MPE controller, and has a synth that responds to MPE or can be easily loaded multiple times in a DAW (with access to CC74 at least) then do try making such 'dimensional' drum sounds. It really opens up sound design to new ideas and presents interesting challenges in the process. Pure fun!

[fluffy_little_something]

I don't really buy into that modulation argument. When a real drummer plays the drums, the hi-hat also sounds pretty consistent. The liveliness comes from the way the drummer plays, his feeling and rhythm etc.

I know a lot of people go to the DAW's piano roll and enter hi-hat, crashes etc. with the mouse, in regular intervals. So naturally, they are all the same volume and timed perfectly. That is what creates the sterile machine sound.
However, when you use the same samples and enter the drums live via the keyboard, the result is very different. There will be slight timing and volume (and in the case of good samples hence also sound) fluctuations.

[himalaya]

I don't really buy into that modulation argument. When a real drummer plays the drums, the hi-hat also sounds pretty consistent. The liveliness comes from the way the drummer plays, his feeling and rhythm etc.
.

This is not about a real drummer and real sounds. At least in the example I have provided, that of using 5D modulation with synthesised sounds, it's about getting new, expressive sounds, which by the virtue of using FM (as an example) will not sound real when modulated. It's about getting, new experimental sounds via new expression controllers.

However, when it comes to realistic drums and just 'hitting' the drum, sure, samples are enough, I would say, at least deeply sampled, multi-layer samples.

[fluffy_little_something]

I thought this thread is about real drum sounds as it says "making "convincing" cymbal tones" in the op.

[himalaya]

Sure, but you have replied about 'modulation', just below my post which talks about modulation in a new way for non-imitative expression/modualtion.

[fluffy_little_something]

Sure, but you have replied about 'modulation', just below my post which talks about modulation in a new way for non-imitative expression/modualtion.

You were not the only one talking about modulation.
Modulation is a rather fuzzy term, I don't even know what it means in the case of cymbals.

[kokotte]

I have try to make a " kind of " crash with Rapid (noise, 2 osc, a comb filter, an hp and some fx)
it s not the best crash in the world, just a first try
https://soundcloud.com/kokotteonline/cymbal-first-run

[pdxindy]

I don't really buy into that modulation argument. When a real drummer plays the drums, the hi-hat also sounds pretty consistent. The liveliness comes from the way the drummer plays, his feeling and rhythm etc.

Go sit down with a cymbal, a few different types of sticks and nothing else... hit the cymbal at the edge, towards the center, soft, hard, hit it multiple times, touch the cymbal with a finger, then hit it (the cymbal, not your finger), hit the cymbal then dampen it with your hand. That is all modulation.