64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
raintalk
KVRist
302 posts since 15 Mar, 2006

Post Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:33 pm

It just needs to be invisible.
Just install the plugin and the software handles the bit business itself.
There's no need for users to care.

Maybe 128bit software will do this? Just be universal and work. :D

Cell phone comparisons make no sense. I'd be happy just to get one bit of a clear signal. :clown:

User avatar
Tj Shredder
KVRAF
1611 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:24 pm

Bitwig can do it. When their market share is growing too much the others might want to learn how to embed 32 and 64 in the same host... The other advantage, if the plug crashes, Bitwig will still run...
I just made some experiments with 32-bit dlls on a Mac with VFX VMachine. You can always run a host in addition to your DAW and record the sound of that host into it. On a Mac you are sort of forced to it if you don't want to be bound into Logic. I run Mainstage for the Apple plugs in parallel with Ardour or Bitwig and in addition now with Vmachine. Three hosts all mixed together. For a complete plug world. Btw most 64-bit only Win plugs exist as Mac plugs as well...

camsr
KVRAF
6890 posts since 17 Feb, 2005

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:40 pm

For programmers, the difference between 32 and 64 is just that some pre-cooked code might not be compatible. Literally, all the support at the OS level is packed nice and tight to make 32 or 64 work with no code changes at all between builds.

Although this excludes the sample players which may load more than 2 or 3GB, in which case the differences in 32 and 64 become logical, as in how to handle streaming the data and when.
Image

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
16159 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:07 pm

Scotty wrote:I don't understand the conceit of some posters here. Can't you relate to abandoned standards? Were you never burned by an audio card maker that refused to update their drivers after an OS update? Did your Iphone never slow down after a forced update from Apple? Did you never get squeezed in the middle of a technology shift? That is really what is underneath all of this.
As long as you're making this the point, yes, I have been squoze out of certain use cases directly through updates. All of the above except I don't have one of those phone devices.
And I eventually moved on.

If there was something I simply had to use and it was ONLY available as 32-bit (there isn't) I would load it in VE Pro 32-bit server. I used to. I would rather in a certain case, but it's a lot of workaround now even with this capability. Additionally [besides the issue of 64-bit, just updates] I would rather use Absynth and Guitar Rig in Kore 2. It's too difficult here to make that happen. I think people could adapt that don't. I wouldn't own a 'sound card' that did that shit, for instance and having experienced that I decided to acquire something a bit more future-proof.

That's not directed at anybody in particular, but per your specific premise this was a tech shift of 2008-2009 afaict.

Scotty
KVRAF
1680 posts since 23 Dec, 2002

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:53 pm

Truly that is all I am driving at. We have all experienced this disruption in one form or another and if we are being honest about as you are, it was not always welcomed and having a reaction against is natural especially if you are directly impacted. This not a sign of flawed character as some posters here would assert. Your Kore 2 example is a great one. I still have mine as I patiently wait for NI to incorporate the missing functionality into Komplete Kontrol and/ or Maschine both of which I own.
jancivil wrote:
Scotty wrote:I don't understand the conceit of some posters here. Can't you relate to abandoned standards? Were you never burned by an audio card maker that refused to update their drivers after an OS update? Did your Iphone never slow down after a forced update from Apple? Did you never get squeezed in the middle of a technology shift? That is really what is underneath all of this.
As long as you're making this the point, yes, I have been squoze out of certain use cases directly through updates. All of the above except I don't have one of those phone devices.
And I eventually moved on.

If there was something I simply had to use and it was ONLY available as 32-bit (there isn't) I would load it in VE Pro 32-bit server. I used to. I would rather in a certain case, but it's a lot of workaround now even with this capability. Additionally [besides the issue of 64-bit, just updates] I would rather use Absynth and Guitar Rig in Kore 2. It's too difficult here to make that happen. I think people could adapt that don't. I wouldn't own a 'sound card' that did that shit, for instance and having experienced that I decided to acquire something a bit more future-proof.

That's not directed at anybody in particular, but per your specific premise this was a tech shift of 2008-2009 afaict.
Asusp9712Core,RayDats,OASYSPCI,Cubase9,KorgLeg,Avalon737s+2022,UA4710D,6176,DCS,LA610MK2s,Neve, ARC2, Soundtoys,UADOCTO,AdamA7X, SphereMics, BCF+R2000s, DrmBrut,MiniLog,Volcas,MoogSubPhat,EnsqDP4,VirusC,Scope,MinBrut,Plugiator,NIS61 Ultimate,ComposrsCld.

Stefken
KVRian
673 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:58 pm

We have all experienced this disruption in one form or another
Everyone who is somewhat involved in IT has.
You draw your conclusions and make a decision.

If the new toys are really needed, you put up the effort and else you don't.

From a manufacter's viewpoint it's a real pita to develop and support all these different platforms and formats.

IT moves fast. If you invest in an IT solution you should know that 'migrations' are part of the deal.
Last edited by Stefken on Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
braj
KVRAF
9090 posts since 5 Feb, 2004

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:01 am

Damn it, why doesn't anyone support Palm OS anymore? I have a pda and it still works. What the bloody hell?
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new

User avatar
stardustmedia
KVRAF
1641 posts since 12 Dec, 2012 from Switzerland

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:14 am

Stefken wrote:
If you invest in an IT solution you should know that 'migrations' are part of the deal.
BAM! Amen.
Image stardustmedia - high end analog music services - murat

Elektronisch
KVRAF
2467 posts since 3 Feb, 2010

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:36 am

You need both. Not that one or another is better/worse. Because for compatibility reasons. Sure 32bit can work in 64bit enviroment via bridges ect but questions are if they will still work with next DAW update? If it will not work who's responsibility it will be to fix that? All the daws are moving to 64bit enviroment (and not without a reason). I think these days if there is possibility 64bit is a must.

Im using FL studio 64bit and even tho it has a bridge if a plugin has 64bit version i use that. And its also adviced by IL because of compatibility + bridging requires more cpu recources.

generaldiomedes
KVRian
502 posts since 15 Apr, 2017 from Canada

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:08 pm

foosnark wrote: 2. There is NO TECHNICAL ADVANTAGE for me to move to 64 bits. I don't need the extra address space. The performance difference, while measurable (in Maschine 2.x) is negligable given the typical number of plugins I run. 64 does not sound better than 32.
I think you would be pretty unique not to benefit from addressing > 4 GB of Ram.
foosnark wrote: 3. People overstate the advantages of 64 bits as well as the difficulty to developers of compiling and supporting two builds. I'm a software developer at a company that did both for a while, and when we dropped 32-bit releases nothing actually got easier.
I wonder, if it was so easy why hasn't Flowstone done it yet?

chk071
KVRAF
17678 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:12 pm

raintalk wrote:It just needs to be invisible.
Just install the plugin and the software handles the bit business itself.
There's no need for users to care.
An installer could handle this, no problem. It couldn't account for preference though, or, when you happen to have a 32-bit and a 64-bit host installed, decide whether the plugin is being installed for both platforms, or for the one or the other. :) Hence it probably doesn't make much sense to have such an installer, but, rather let the user decide in the end.

User avatar
layzer
KVRAF
5765 posts since 11 Jun, 2006

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:26 pm

This fight.... its like any other phenomenon that deals with volumes, most people
can get by having a normal sized stomach to eat a hamburger,
but then there are those that have to get stomach enlargement
surgery to be able to eat an entire cow in one sitting.

same crowd as usual, hoarders and greedy folk.
HW SYNTHS [KORG T2EX - AKAI AX80 - YAMAHA SY77 - ENSONIQ VFX]
HW MODULES [OBi M1000 - ROLAND MKS-50 - ROLAND JV880 - KURZ 1000PX]
SW [CHARLATAN - OBXD - OXE - ELEKTRO - MICROTERA - M1 - SURGE - RMiV]
DAW [ENERGY XT2/1U RACK WINXP / MAUDIO 1010LT PCI]

User avatar
foosnark
KVRAF
4450 posts since 9 Jan, 2003 from Saint Louis MO

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:09 pm

generaldiomedes wrote:I think you would be pretty unique not to benefit from addressing > 4 GB of Ram.
4GB is more than enough space for the executable when you don't use big sample libraries. I usually don't use samples at all... and often I don't even use any VST synths, just hardware with VST effects. I doubt that's a unique usage pattern, either.

I would be surprised if my typical projects now need half the RAM that I needed 10 years ago.

foosnark wrote:I wonder, if it was so easy why hasn't Flowstone done it yet?
In my experience it can take considerable effort to port from 32-bit only code that relies on no-longer-supported 32-bit libraries and old compiler versions, to 64 bits. I've done that with one of our legacy projects.

What is generally not difficult is continuing to support 32-bit builds once it's 64-bit compatible.

I'm not familiar with Flowstone so I don't know what specific challenges they might face.

Examigan
KVRAF
4457 posts since 15 Sep, 2005 from East Coast of the USA

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:07 pm

http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/digid ... synth/2119

Why can't I run that old additive synth (Digidesign's SoftSynth) for the Atari ST on my 64-bit PC?! :hihi:

Seriously though, it was pretty cool at that time.

User avatar
Guenon
KVRAF
1506 posts since 17 Jun, 2005

Re: 64 vs 32 bit FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Post Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:46 am

layzer wrote:This fight.... its like any other phenomenon that deals with volumes, most people
can get by having a normal sized stomach to eat a hamburger,
but then there are those that have to get stomach enlargement
surgery to be able to eat an entire cow in one sitting.

same crowd as usual, hoarders and greedy folk.
Hmm. I would say it's more like any other phenomenon that deals with varying use cases and preferences, and people trying to minimize and badmouth the ones who don't happen to share the same way of doing things as you. Comments like this are all the while more common online, no matter what the subject is, and they are both unfortunate and interesting from a psychological viewpoint. They don't stick to friendly and objective comparison, and instead descend into ^ this, deliberately not seeing the other person's viewpoint.

In the case of 32 bit and 64 bit software, when it goes into that mode, it's about calling people who prefer 32 bit software luddites and relics and stupid, and calling people who prefer 64 bit software greedy and bloatware users and also stupid. Hah. What's the point?

Someone using only 32 bit stuff and maybe even quite sparsely at that, preferring to use outboard gear instead of software instruments, not going anywhere near the 32 bit RAM limit (like foosnark described his working methods) isn't working in any way worse or better just because of that aspect, when compared someone using for example Kontakt instruments and needing more RAM to do it. For one, I wouldn't be able to do my work with 4GB, and that's just what I do. It's by no means rare to use instruments of that size these days, and it also isn't rare to use less RAM than that. This doesn't suddenly make either one stupid or backwards or greedy or a horrible producer :)

When bringing up this specific subject, there are often jokers who say something along the lines of "pffft 64 bit, bloaters gonna bloat, wait until 128 bit comes along, it's even better" :D ... And similarly, for the other crowd, people keep pointing out things like "why don't you go back to 8 bit machines then, they were good back in the 80s."

Both are of course mere jokes, but also attempts to snarkily minimize the other people's viewpoint. To someone working with 32 bit software, suggesting "even less" is of course just a jab at the supposed ludditeness and how their methods are so ancient. And as for being greedy and needing "even more bits": for someone who does need more RAM than 32 bit software allows, 64 bit addressing merely removes the 4 GB limit and there is no need for more (as 64 bit addressing has an upper limit of 16 million terabytes of addressed memory).

In other words, the increase from 32 bit to 64 bit addressing just removes the practical upper limit of addressable RAM. It remedies a limit that has come to be a burden from the viewpoint of heavier computing and those who need it, and it's not in the foreseeable future when DAWs might have the bandwidth and calculating capacity to need more than those millions of terabytes of address space ;). And if you don't need it, it really only means you don't need it.

Return to “Instruments”