The Mangle (SoundGuru), is it still alive ?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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KVRAF
3874 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui

Post Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:13 pm

To me there isn't really that much technical difference between any of them, since 99% of them
implement granular via wavetable anyway. Granular is mostly a buzzword I think these days, as it
can barely even be called synthesis at all. You only need pick implementations that you like, which
have the features you want. Arguably, some of them may be better at processing the granular
output with better effects and whatnot. I think that right there is one of the main things to realize
about granular, just how much of that characteristic granular sound can be attributed to
the quality of applied effects and pitch shifting algorithms.

Currently, my fav implementation is the grain sample manipulator in Reason, as it presents 4 different
methods for achieving granular, and you can sample directly into it.

KVRAF
3880 posts since 15 Sep, 2010

Post Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:31 pm

Dry, raw, unprocessed granular synthesis of the same sample will sound vastly different from Reaktor, Max For Live, Csound, or most of the granular synths otherthere from different developers like Mangle, Padshop, Granite, Falcon, SpaceCraft, etc etc, just to name a few. Saying they basically all sound the same dry and only the effects make the different is pretty inaccurate imo.
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KVRAF
3874 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui

Post Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:01 pm

Well, why do they sound different, or how do they sound different? It's just sample playback,
(unless it's an effect that chops up incoming audio). If you have exactly the same sample chopped
up to exactly the same length played at exactly the same speed. The only thing that can be variable
is the envelope, any differences in sound have to be in the processing. So yeah they sound different,
but it's not because of the granular part.

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KVRAF
5679 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:07 pm

It is because of the envelopes! That is why I made my own version in Max/MSP. They rarely give you a choice of envelopes but that is the most crucial part. Most have a sort of cosine envelope over the whole duration, which is good for short grains. If its a triangle you get a very harsh sound on short samples and you would hear the resulting amplitude modulation. Then the variance in timing could smear that effect.
Granular is not a variance of wavetable synthesis, its the other way around, wavetable is a very limited variant of granular synthesis...
Even fft based effects can be looked at as a variant on granular, each fft frame is a grain...

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KVRAF
3874 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui

Post Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:30 am

Yeah, but variable grain envelopes are still a design feature and unfortunately, not a common one. Definitely they are one indicator of a good granular implementation.

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KVRAF
15603 posts since 12 Oct, 2008 from Here and there

Post Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:27 am

Padshop/HALion, Falcon, Pigments 2, crusherX all have grain envelope options (crusherX has the most and you can also draw your own) so it's not that uncommon.

KVRist
230 posts since 12 Mar, 2005

Post Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:36 am

pekbro wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:30 am
Yeah, but variable grain envelopes are still a design feature and unfortunately, not a common one. Definitely they are one indicator of a good granular implementation.
By that you mean the ability to have the ADSR controls as targets of modulation (i.e modulate attack speed/level by other modulators) ?

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KVRAF
5679 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:42 am

No, a grain envelope would usually be called a window function. Grains are short (normally) between 20 and 80 ms. Its the way how a little blip of sound fades in and out... ADSR is macro level and the worst inheritance we got from old times. Back then you had limitations as everything had to be built analog, that is excusable. But that modern soft synths still often just offer an ADSR is not! (little rant...; - )

KVRist
230 posts since 12 Mar, 2005

Post Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:49 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:42 am
No, a grain envelope would usually be called a window function.
Ah okay, sorry, I realised I mistook that as 'variable gain envelopes'

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KVRAF
5679 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:58 am

Sampleconstruct wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:27 am
Padshop/HALion, Falcon, Pigments 2, crusherX all have grain envelope options (crusherX has the most and you can also draw your own) so it's not that uncommon.
CrusherX, yeah, thats on my wishlist...
Padshop has a limited choice, Pigments way better.
I am not sure if drawing helps, as for my taste it depends much on the grain size. For longer grains I want to define attack and release times and the hold would be defined by the grain size. For shorter times a cosine window is best for smooth crossfades between the grains...

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KVRAF
15603 posts since 12 Oct, 2008 from Here and there

Post Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:31 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:58 am
Sampleconstruct wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:27 am
Padshop/HALion, Falcon, Pigments 2, crusherX all have grain envelope options (crusherX has the most and you can also draw your own) so it's not that uncommon.
CrusherX, yeah, thats on my wishlist...
Padshop has a limited choice, Pigments way better.
I am not sure if drawing helps, as for my taste it depends much on the grain size. For longer grains I want to define attack and release times and the hold would be defined by the grain size. For shorter times a cosine window is best for smooth crossfades between the grains...
Well Pigments has ramp down/triangle/ramp up and everything in between (inclugin all the other suspects) and one can modulate the shape with any of the available modulators which is cool, Padshop/HALion have the usual suspects, Falcon has its own implementation. crusherX has some really crazy shapes on board which totally alter the sound and since version 8 one can use FM/RM to modulate each grain.

KVRAF
3880 posts since 15 Sep, 2010

Post Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:28 am

pekbro wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:30 am
Yeah, but variable grain envelopes are still a design feature and unfortunately, not a common one. Definitely they are one indicator of a good granular implementation.
Sorry but nope, wrong again. Grain enveloppe is not a 'feature' but actually is at the heart and part of the basics of the granular synthesis. I suggest you to to read a bit on the subject:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... thesis.pdf
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KVRAF
5679 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:15 am

Or read the hardcore variant: Curtis Roads Microsound

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KVRAF
3874 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui

Post Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:17 am

Neon Breath wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:28 am
pekbro wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:30 am
Yeah, but variable grain envelopes are still a design feature and unfortunately, not a common one. Definitely they are one indicator of a good granular implementation.
Sorry but nope, wrong again. Grain enveloppe is not a 'feature' but actually is at the heart and part of the basics of the granular synthesis. I suggest you to to read a bit on the subject:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... thesis.pdf
It can be, but doesn't have to be variable at all. And I've read plenty thanks...

KVRist
230 posts since 12 Mar, 2005

Post Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:30 am

Sampleconstruct wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:31 am
Well Pigments has ramp down/triangle/ramp up and everything in between (inclugin all the other suspects) and one can modulate the shape with any of the available modulators which is cool,
Guess I really missed out on the Pigments sale last year.

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