Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
nichttuntun
KVRian
512 posts since 22 Nov, 2017

Post Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:09 pm

:hug:

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RyFi
KVRist
148 posts since 1 Feb, 2008 from Regina, SK

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:16 pm

Tiny change: support for Sustain CC added.

Jonathan Shepherd
KVRist
329 posts since 28 Jan, 2003

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:52 pm

Thank you, your updates have been tremendous! One of my favorite fms for sure. Good day-

nichttuntun
KVRian
512 posts since 22 Nov, 2017

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:27 pm

:tu: :clap:

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RyFi
KVRist
148 posts since 1 Feb, 2008 from Regina, SK

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:11 am

Jonathan Shepherd wrote:Thank you, your updates have been tremendous! One of my favorite fms for sure. Good day-
Thank you, I'm so happy to hear it! Good day to you too. :phones:

gentleclockdivider
KVRian
1234 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:39 am

Just wanted to give a quick notice that the FM amount should be much higher when velocity is set at at max .
Please compare with dexed synth , a simple 1:1 ratio , modulator into carrier , setting the modulator level to max and key velocity level to max increases the fm amount considerably .
This is not the case with aurora , the fm amount's limit is 14 db ,, regardless key velicity .... ..this should be increased when key velocity amount is increased.
WHich is also the reason why some imported dx 7 presets sounds way off
Eyeball exchanging
Soul calibrating ..frequencies

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RyFi
KVRist
148 posts since 1 Feb, 2008 from Regina, SK

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:03 am

gentleclockdivider wrote:Just wanted to give a quick notice that the FM amount should be much higher when velocity is set at at max .
Wow, that's awfully presumptuous of you! :clap:
Please compare with dexed synth , a simple 1:1 ratio , modulator into carrier , setting the modulator level to max and key velocity level to max increases the fm amount considerably .
This is not the case with aurora , the fm amount's limit is 14 db ,, regardless key velicity .... ..this should be increased when key velocity amount is increased.
WHich is also the reason why some imported dx 7 presets sounds way off
You seem to be under the false impression that Aurora FM is a DEXED emulator. It is not. What's your agenda? Why are you singling out Aurora FM? Why do you insist on comparing Aurora FM to DEXED and asserting that it's not correct because it doesn't do what DEXED does? Please stop - you're not accomplishing anything. Why don't you go complain to the DEXED creator that it doesn't work the same way as Aurora FM, hmmm?

First of all, you're using incorrect terms. The maximum modulator level of 14 is a Modulation Index, not an amount in dB. Saying 14 dB is just wrong.

Let me explain how Aurora FM works. Aurora FM's operators are limited to unity (0 dB). You can't get any higher gain than that. Velocity sensitivity treats velocities of 64 as unity, velocities greater than that as increases, and velocities less than that as decreases. With full velocity sensitivity, if your operator level is maxxed out and your envelope maxxes at 0 dB and you play with a velocity of 127, the increase in gain doesn't accomplish anything because the operator output is already maxxed out. Velocities from 64-127 will all have the same output amplitude. You need to have a carrier output level < 0 dB or a modulator output level < 14.0 or an envelope max < 0 dB for there to be a headroom in which to get the positive gain scaling from velocities > 64.

This is all by design and is explained in the documentation. I assure you there's nothing wrong with it.

If you want to discuss Aurora FM objectively on its own merits, I'm always open to a fair discussion. If you want me to "fix" Aurora FM because it doesn't behave the same way as DEXED, you're wasting your own time, my time in needing to respond to your public misinformed complaints, and being an annoyance. Any further such comparisons to DEXED are unwelcome, unappreciated, and will be ignored.

Etienne1973
KVRist
293 posts since 8 Feb, 2013 from Switzerland

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:42 am

Aurora FM User Guide wrote:
Yamaha DX7 Patches

Aurora FM also loads Yamaha DX7 .syx SysEx single patch and 32-patch bank files. As the Aurora FM synthesis engine is fundamentally completely different than the DX7, the patches are translated/mapped to corresponding Aurora FM parameter values using calculations based on publicized DX7 parameter ranges and implementation details. The patch translation is respectable but not guaranteed to be 100% optimal in all cases. Aurora FM will inherently never be an accurate emulation of a DX7 as that was never the intention - it is not a DX7 emulator. Aurora FM has a high-resolution 32-bit float engine employing completely proprietary calculations for all components. (However, if you have quantifiable information on how my translation efforts deviate from the ideal, please don't hesitate to get in touch with me. I would like to make the DX7 parameter translation as close to accurate as possible.)
Fact is Aurora FM providing DX7 patch import. Don't want to discuss its accuracy?

gentleclockdivider
KVRian
1234 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:59 pm

RyFi wrote:
gentleclockdivider wrote:Just wanted to give a quick notice that the FM amount should be much higher when velocity is set at at max .
Wow, that's awfully presumptuous of you! :clap:
Please compare with dexed synth , a simple 1:1 ratio , modulator into carrier , setting the modulator level to max and key velocity level to max increases the fm amount considerably .
This is not the case with aurora , the fm amount's limit is 14 db ,, regardless key velicity .... ..this should be increased when key velocity amount is increased.
WHich is also the reason why some imported dx 7 presets sounds way off
You seem to be under the false impression that Aurora FM is a DEXED emulator. It is not. What's your agenda? Why are you singling out Aurora FM? Why do you insist on comparing Aurora FM to DEXED and asserting that it's not correct because it doesn't do what DEXED does? Please stop - you're not accomplishing anything. Why don't you go complain to the DEXED creator that it doesn't work the same way as Aurora FM, hmmm?

First of all, you're using incorrect terms. The maximum modulator level of 14 is a Modulation Index, not an amount in dB. Saying 14 dB is just wrong.

Let me explain how Aurora FM works. Aurora FM's operators are limited to unity (0 dB). You can't get any higher gain than that. Velocity sensitivity treats velocities of 64 as unity, velocities greater than that as increases, and velocities less than that as decreases. With full velocity sensitivity, if your operator level is maxxed out and your envelope maxxes at 0 dB and you play with a velocity of 127, the increase in gain doesn't accomplish anything because the operator output is already maxxed out. Velocities from 64-127 will all have the same output amplitude. You need to have a carrier output level < 0 dB or a modulator output level < 14.0 or an envelope max < 0 dB for there to be a headroom in which to get the positive gain scaling from velocities > 64.

This is all by design and is explained in the documentation. I assure you there's nothing wrong with it.

If you want to discuss Aurora FM objectively on its own merits, I'm always open to a fair discussion. If you want me to "fix" Aurora FM because it doesn't behave the same way as DEXED, you're wasting your own time, my time in needing to respond to your public misinformed complaints, and being an annoyance. Any further such comparisons to DEXED are unwelcome, unappreciated, and will be ignored.
I've been giving bug reports/input since the beginning , well this was the last one then .
I was the person who pointed out the feedback routing in aurora was way off , you appreciated the input and fixed it ..
If you want to aurora to import dx7 presets , the fm index should be higher depending on velocity , simple as that .
Why do you have such a temper if someone points something out ?
And why compare to dexed ..are seriously asking this question ?
MAybe because they are both inspired by a certain japanese synth from the eighties , which both happen to import presets from said synth .
Anyway ..good luck with further development .. :tu:
Eyeball exchanging
Soul calibrating ..frequencies

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RyFi
KVRist
148 posts since 1 Feb, 2008 from Regina, SK

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:47 pm

Etienne1973 wrote: Fact is Aurora FM providing DX7 patch import. Don't want to discuss its accuracy?
Not at all. I absolutely would want to talk about DX7 patch translation. Those are indeed my words and I mean them. If anyone has quantifiable information explaining how I could improve DX7 parameter mapping/translation to my Aurora FM synthesis engine, I want to hear it.

However, this is not what gentleclockdivider did. First of all, he said "the FM amount should be much higher when velocity is set at at max" as if that's a fact, and then gave an example of how to set up DEXED and explained that the behaviour in Aurora FM was different with the most comparable settings. His example had NOTHING to do with importing a DX7 patch. I then factually explained how Aurora FM handles velocity sensitivity. If this is different than how DEXED does it, then so be it. Of course you can set up DEXED to perform differently than Aurora FM. Like I've said, Aurora FM is not a DEXED emulator, so of course things are going to work differently in DEXED than they do in Aurora FM.

Then he said "WHich is also the reason why some imported dx 7 presets sounds way off", as if he had made a strong argument that explained a discrepancy in my patch translation, when he in fact did nothing of the sort. His example showed that DEXED and Aurora FM are in fact two completely different and unrelated synths and perform differently, but not how and why my patch translation is "wrong".

If either of you are serious about having a civil, objective discussion with supporting facts, then I'm all ears, but I haven't seen an indication of that yet. I grant that there may be validity to this assertion. I can explain how Aurora FM works, how I perform the translation, and whether or not it's possible to achieve a more accurate approximation than I currently am, so if you want to bring the appropriate evidence and we can approach this logically and fairly, then I'm ready when you are.

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RyFi
KVRist
148 posts since 1 Feb, 2008 from Regina, SK

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:12 pm

gentleclockdivider wrote: I've been giving bug reports/input since the beginning , well this was the last one then .
I was the person who pointed out the feedback routing in aurora was way off , you appreciated the input and fixed it ..
If you want to aurora to import dx7 presets , the fm index should be higher depending on velocity , simple as that .
Why do you have such a temper if someone points something out ?
And why compare to dexed ..are seriously asking this question ?
MAybe because they are both inspired by a certain japanese synth from the eighties , which both happen to import presets from said synth .
Anyway ..good luck with further development .. :tu:
I have a problem with your tact. It sucks, guy. It sucked when you reported the feedback performance, and it sucked this time. The last time you were actually right about something and I was grateful for that, so I gritted my teeth and looked beyond your atrocious tact and graciously thanked you for your report. You never acknowledged my response and fixes at the time. It was a very one-sided you-criticize/I-defend situation and then you took off without saying another word. I'm not letting it go without calling you out on it this time, though, because you have not made your case and I am currently not gaining anything from this exchange - in fact I'm annoyed by it.

I do not appreciate waking up, checking the thread, and seeing that the last thing 100 people have read is an unsubstantiated accusation of how my synth is wrong because it doesn't work the same way DEXED does. This is a shitty start to the day, it's an offensive move that immediately puts me on a need to defend or rebut or concede, and it's just basic shitty behaviour. You could send me a PM, but you don't. You could send me an email, but you don't. You could even just have some basic decency and delicacy and approach this with a "Hey, man, so here's the thing... from my perspective...blahblahblah...and what I'm seeing with DEXED is blahblah, but what I'm seeing with Aurora FM is blablah, so maybe...blablahblah... what do you think?" but no, you swoop in, make a claim of facts that you're right and Aurora FM is wrong, and then I have to scramble to deal with that publicly before too many more people read one side of an accusation without hearing the other. I don't like it, I don't appreciate it, and I don't put up with people showing me that kind of lack of tact and decency in a public display, so I'm calling you out on it.

If you still believe that my tempestuous response was unprovoked and that I'm totally in the wrong here, then I guess we're done here. If, however, you're capable of conceding that maybe my point of view has a touch of validity to it, and that maybe, perhaps, you'd feel the same way as I do if the tables were turned, then I'm certainly willing to put this behind us, shrug it off, and make a serious effort to approach a discussion with civility and tact and respect. I'm always up for that. I just demand to be treated with a certain level of respect, internet forum or not.

gentleclockdivider
KVRian
1234 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:08 am

From page 7 , where I reported the feedback bug ...seems to be done in a polite manner if you ask me .

-quote -
gentleclockdivider wrote:
Well I don't know , I am just comparing with dexed , my nord modular and a self made reaktor ensemble .
https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/8291/
I know that feedback brings artifacts when pushed beyond it's limits , but non of the examples exhibit this behaviour of equally spreaded overtones at 5 ,10 ,15 KHz .before breaking up into noise
ONly Aurora does .
The point is , the feedback doesn't get sharp enough to get a nice saw wave , where other produce all harmonics before breaking up , aurora introduces the prominent ear piercing overtones .


To developer, thanks for updating the plugin to make it work on my system


It looks like a failure on my part to quantify my feedback results against what others are doing. I didn't know that my feedback level before hunting was inferior to what other synths were achieving. I'll do some R&D and come up with an improvement here. Thanks for reporting.


-unquote-

Maybe the problem lies in the fact that I report bugs on a public board instead of email , again I couldn't have known that .
Eyeball exchanging
Soul calibrating ..frequencies

mcbpete
KVRian
1270 posts since 24 Jun, 2006 from London, England

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:32 am

I've not done any A-B comparisons with sysex imports yet but is the issue the same with what Arturia had to add to DX7 V to make it sound the same as the real thing? IIRC Yamaha's DX7 has a velocity range from 0-100 rather than the 0-128 standard - So in DX7V there's that toggle to change between DX7 velocity (which presumably multiplies each velocity in the imported carrier parameter by 1.28) and Full (midi standard) velocity

gentleclockdivider
KVRian
1234 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:44 am

Without further do .here's an example .

Aurora s 1:1 modulator--->carrier ...modulator set to 12.65 , velo amp set to max
..this gives the exact same result as another well known freeware dx7 emulator ( dexed :D ) when it's modulator is set to full and key velocity amp is set to zero .
Both are played at full velocity
FIrst part 'aurora' , second part 'dexed' , third part again 'dexed' increasing key velocity setting from 0--->7
https://app.box.com/s/u3rcy6x45ohv3uqnykqdr77sk2b8ezqb

Yeah aurora is not dexed , but dx7 import will be more accurate when aurora's key velocity -->fm index is fixed ( not saying it's a bug ... :clown: )

As I suspected , I compared imported dx7 presets in 'aurora ' witch dexed and set dexed velo key amount to '0' , the sounds were spot on .
So i'ts just a small step for a developer , a huge step for the dx7 import accuracy :tu:
I am sincerely sorry for pointing this ( non) issue to your attention .

best regards
Eyeball exchanging
Soul calibrating ..frequencies

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RyFi
KVRist
148 posts since 1 Feb, 2008 from Regina, SK

Re: Aurora FM - New Win(32/64) VSTi FM synthesizer - Introductory pricing

Post Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:38 am

gentleclockdivider wrote:To developer, thanks for updating the plugin to make it work on my system
I stand corrected. You did show gratitude for dealing with your compatibility problem. Please accept my sincere apology.
gentleclockdivider wrote:Without further do .here's an example .

Aurora s 1:1 modulator--->carrier ...modulator set to 12.65 , velo amp set to max
..this gives the exact same result as another well known freeware dx7 emulator ( dexed :D ) when it's modulator is set to full and key velocity amp is set to zero .
Both are played at full velocity
FIrst part 'aurora' , second part 'dexed' , third part again 'dexed' increasing key velocity setting from 0--->7
<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://app.box.com/s/u3rcy6x45ohv3uqny ... ezqb</span>

Yeah aurora is not dexed , but dx7 import will be more accurate when aurora's key velocity -->fm index is fixed ( not saying it's a bug ... :clown: )
I implore you to be careful with your wording. You have not yet proven how and why my DX7 patch translation is incorrect, so this statement is presumptuous on your part. You think you've made your point clear and that it's a done deal and you're right, but the truth is you haven't. The issue is not as simple and obvious as you believe it is, and I will explain why.
As I suspected , I compared imported dx7 presets in 'aurora ' witch dexed and set dexed velo key amount to '0' , the sounds were spot on .
So i'ts just a small step for a developer , a huge step for the dx7 import accuracy :tu:
I am sincerely sorry for pointing this ( non) issue to your attention .

best regards
We need to back up a step. Ideally I wouldn't have to say this, but I'm totally aware of your bias as treating Dexed as the authoritative source on the matter, so I clearly need to: we absolutely have to be diligent here and not start from a point of taking assumptions as fact. Dexed is not a DX7. Just because something works a certain way in Dexed does not necessarily mean that that's how it works on a DX7. I don't own a DX7 and have no first-hand experience in comparing the accuracy of Dexed to a DX7. It has never been proven to my satisfaction that Dexed is indeed a perfect emulation of a DX7. I do not blindly treat Dexed as the benchmark for DX7 compatibility - it might be, it might not be; I don't know, and I refuse to blindly assume that it is. I look for corroborating evidence in building my understanding of the DX7's operation and parameter ranges/values.

My references for DX7 patch translation are the DX7 manual, Howard Massey's "The Complete DX7", and sites that have tables of generally-regarded-as-correct parameter values obtained from reverse-engineering.

Let me direct your attention to pg. 180 in "The Complete DX7". Figure 11-15 states that if the DX7 velocity sensitivity is set to 0, the operator output will be at the level set by the operator's Output Level parameter. Essentially, at vel sens 0, all velocities are treated as maximum, whether that's 100 or 127 or whatever the DX7 recognizes, and the Output Level is going to determine, well, the output level.

Pg. 179 in TCDX7 as well as the various DX7xx manuals all state that velocity sensitivity can't increase an operator's output level beyond the value set with the Output Level parameter.

Therefore, following those two statements: on an operator with a maxxed out envelope and an operator level of 99, when playing a note with a velocity of 127, increasing the velocity sensitivity in Dexed should NOT be increasing the operator's output. It should already be at maximum. It should sound the same at vel sens 0 as it does at vel sens 7.

I must now note that Aurora FM behaves in the manner explained in the "The Complete DX7", not in the manner exhibited in Dexed.

How do you explain this? Is "The Complete DX7" wrong and Dexed is right? Or is "The Complete DX7" right and Dexed wrong?

I want to hear your analysis. My own analysis is that I accepted that "The Complete DX7" was correct (I'm going to base my understanding off of published reference materials, not off of other softsynths), and so without owning a DX7 and being able to test for myself, I have to conclude that either Dexed must be wrong, or else there's some other factor that we're not considering.

While I await gentleclockdivider's assessment of this information, I'll ask if there's anybody out there who can help with this, either by thinking of some missing explanation, proving "The Complete DX7" is wrong and Dexed is right, or proving that TCDX7 is right because they own a DX7 and the behaviour explained in TCDX7 is the observed behaviour of the DX7.

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