Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
Izak Synthiemental
KVRist
480 posts since 4 Aug, 2010

Post Fri May 11, 2018 7:40 am

Going to test it on the weekend. A few questions beforedhand (I cannot watch the video, so the questions might be obsolete):

- is it possible to tune the individual sounds individually?
- is it possible to stack or link 2 sounds, so that they play together? That would be very helpful
- is it possible to load longer audio files (not one shot sounds, but sequences / drum loops) and assign slices / sections of the audio to individual notes?

These features are not obligatory, but they come in very handy when working with sampled drum sequences. Of course it's possible to edit a drum sequence in an audio editor and slice it, but I like being able to to that directly in the drum sampler in order to avoid having to use another software. It's more ergonomic, you basically save a few steps of the process by being able to do it in the drum sampler directly.

Thanks for the effort, looking forward to trying it out and giving feeback.
http://soundcloud.com/samaritageto

Proper Education Always Corrects Errors

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luzifer
KVRer
26 posts since 18 Apr, 2018 from Berlin

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Fri May 11, 2018 7:41 am

Kenmac wrote:It seems like it's a pretty good drum plugin even at the early stages, however, I often use a Korg PadKontrol for drum sounds and I noticed that the mapping for the drums follows the keyboard mapping instead of the general midi drum map. Would it be possible to give the option of GM MIDI drum mapping along with those who prefer the keyboard mapping? BTW here's a link to a gif of the GM MIDI drum map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... rumMap.gif Thanks, and looking forward to future updates.
I agree. Mapping is definitely important. I was already wondering why it hadn't shown up in the discussion yet ;) Almost all of our first testers (friends) had pads tightly integrated into their music workflow and where requesting that. I do have a version with mapping capabilities on the pipe but it's quite a huge change and requires thorough testing. Hope the change will make it into the next alpha.

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luzifer
KVRer
26 posts since 18 Apr, 2018 from Berlin

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Fri May 11, 2018 9:51 am

Izak Synthiemental wrote:Going to test it on the weekend. A few questions beforedhand (I cannot watch the video, so the questions might be obsolete):

- is it possible to tune the individual sounds individually?
- is it possible to stack or link 2 sounds, so that they play together? That would be very helpful
- is it possible to load longer audio files (not one shot sounds, but sequences / drum loops) and assign slices / sections of the audio to individual notes?

These features are not obligatory, but they come in very handy when working with sampled drum sequences. Of course it's possible to edit a drum sequence in an audio editor and slice it, but I like being able to to that directly in the drum sampler in order to avoid having to use another software. It's more ergonomic, you basically save a few steps of the process by being able to do it in the drum sampler directly.

Thanks for the effort, looking forward to trying it out and giving feeback.
Did you have technical difficulties with the video? Tuning and the other three parameters are per-sound.
Stacking/Linking is not possible yet, but i think it would make sense to add that feature.

We currently cut a sample after 30 seconds. Slicing is nice (and matches quite well with my personal musical workflow). It'll probably be a feature we get back to after 1.0.

Izak Synthiemental
KVRist
480 posts since 4 Aug, 2010

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Fri May 11, 2018 10:19 am

luzifer wrote:
Did you have technical difficulties with the video? Tuning and the other three parameters are per-sound.
Stacking/Linking is not possible yet, but i think it would make sense to add that feature.

We currently cut a sample after 30 seconds. Slicing is nice (and matches quite well with my personal musical workflow). It'll probably be a feature we get back to after 1.0.
Thanks!

The 30 seconds limit is not a problem since most drum sequences sampled from old records are typically shorter than that. Another possible way of slicing from user perspective would be to load the same drum sequence audio onto different keys and then use start and end points on each to mark the particular slice. Sitala is able to load and play variations of the same audio file on different keys, right?

About your video - it's totally fine, it's just that I'm currently sitting on a public computer that doesn't allow me to listen to the audio of a video.

I also wrote you a short PM about some velocity related ideas. Looking forward to giving more extensive feedback after trying it out.
http://soundcloud.com/samaritageto

Proper Education Always Corrects Errors

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fisherKing
KVRAF
1742 posts since 6 Aug, 2009

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Fri May 11, 2018 1:41 pm

this looks great; am looking for a simple drum plugin. waiting for the AU, & will happily test & torture it in logic X when...
always one plugin short of perfection...

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luzifer
KVRer
26 posts since 18 Apr, 2018 from Berlin

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Sat May 12, 2018 1:57 am

Stefken wrote:
luzifer wrote:
Stefken wrote:Extra idea : you could introduce some analog drift/behavior.
Again a (functional) simple way to introduce some more variance and colors.

You could apply the drift by default, provide a setting in the menu, or put a control on the GUI (but the GUI is so nice and clean now).
As @scotchi mentioned above we have been thinking about adding a 'Dirt' knob. I could imagine a knob that is by default on zero and goes to analog on one side (i.e introduce drift as you proposed and adds more waveshaping as you continue) and goes to digital on the other side to add bit crushing, clipping, and downsampling. Any thoughts?
It's not a bad idea, but I don't (fully) associate analog drift with the concept dirt.
Analog can also mean 'electric current sounds' besides drift.
Hard to explain what i mean with electric current sounds but if you open up the gain on MPReq you get that sound
http://analogobsession.com/product/mpreq/
That 's already more in the dirt section.

I associate dirt aspecially with distortion.

The main aspect of analog to me, is the fact that each hit sounds (slightly) different as opposed to the machine gun effect.
Thanks for the MPReq suggestion. I’ve been playing around with it quite a bit yesterday and find it especially nice for melodic sounds with long decays. But also like it on the toms :) I agree, 'dirt' isn't a good label in this case. I guess 'character' would be more appropriate.

We'll definitely search for a way to incorporate this.

Stefken
KVRian
901 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Sat May 12, 2018 2:34 am

luzifer wrote:
Stefken wrote:
luzifer wrote:
Stefken wrote:Extra idea : you could introduce some analog drift/behavior.
Again a (functional) simple way to introduce some more variance and colors.

You could apply the drift by default, provide a setting in the menu, or put a control on the GUI (but the GUI is so nice and clean now).
As @scotchi mentioned above we have been thinking about adding a 'Dirt' knob. I could imagine a knob that is by default on zero and goes to analog on one side (i.e introduce drift as you proposed and adds more waveshaping as you continue) and goes to digital on the other side to add bit crushing, clipping, and downsampling. Any thoughts?
It's not a bad idea, but I don't (fully) associate analog drift with the concept dirt.
Analog can also mean 'electric current sounds' besides drift.
Hard to explain what i mean with electric current sounds but if you open up the gain on MPReq you get that sound
http://analogobsession.com/product/mpreq/
That 's already more in the dirt section.

I associate dirt aspecially with distortion.

The main aspect of analog to me, is the fact that each hit sounds (slightly) different as opposed to the machine gun effect.
Thanks for the MPReq suggestion. I’ve been playing around with it quite a bit yesterday and find it especially nice for melodic sounds with long decays. But also like it on the toms :) I agree, 'dirt' isn't a good label in this case. I guess 'character' would be more appropriate.

We'll definitely search for a way to incorporate this.
:tu: Keep us posted.
Yes, character is a good label.

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luzifer
KVRer
26 posts since 18 Apr, 2018 from Berlin

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Sat May 12, 2018 4:12 am

Stefken wrote:It's a really nice concept ! Less is more.
tesselode wrote: [*]Volume probably shouldn't be one of the "main 4" controls, since it's not so much for expression and more for mixing. It could go at the bottom of the interface, under each drum pad.
I concur.
You could replace it with resonance which is also a simple way to change sounds but can introduce a lot of extra colors with just one simple knob.

With regard to placing knobs in accordance to eye movement priority, I would swap resonance with the tuning knob (so resonance on the left; tuning on the right;(volume knobs at the bottom; ).
To be honest i’m note quite sure what you mean with resonance in this context. Doesn’t resonance require a filter in the first place?

Stefken
KVRian
901 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Sat May 12, 2018 5:07 am

luzifer wrote:To be honest i’m note quite sure what you mean with resonance in this context. Doesn’t resonance require a filter in the first place?
Yeah, pretty much :wink: .
And the most obvious candidates for tweaking the filter are cutoff and resonance.
But as you are going for a minimalistic approach, I choose the one parameter that had the most impact/relevance in the context of a drummachine (and for me that was resonance).
Obviously you could include both cutoff and resonance (and then 2 pole vs 4 pole selector and)...
It just depends how far you want to go with this and how many controls your are willing to provide.

Stefken
KVRian
901 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Sat May 12, 2018 6:05 am

Double

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scotchi
KVRer
24 posts since 1 Apr, 2018 from Berlin, Germany

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Sat May 12, 2018 8:54 am

Stefken wrote:But as you are going for a minimalistic approach, I choose the one parameter that had the most impact/relevance in the context of a drummachine (and for me that was resonance). [...]
It just depends how far you want to go with this and how many controls your are willing to provide.
I still like the idea hinted at by tesselode of having the pitch knob do more than just adjust the pitch (and probably be labeled differently). It's definitely not something we'll have by the next build, but I can imagine having a single knob that sweeps from resonating filter -> pitch shifting -> ring modulation all in one sweep. I'm definitely not convinced that that can be made to work in a sane way, but the idea sounds sexy to me. That kind of keeps in the spirit of the shape knob wrapping up what are usually a bunch of other parameters. (The tricky part feels like that you'd want to present this on one smooth spectrum rather than in a knob with three discreet sections. I'm not sure how the mechanics for that would work, but it feels like an idea worth playing with.)

Stefken
KVRian
901 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Sat May 12, 2018 9:16 am

scotchi wrote:
Stefken wrote:But as you are going for a minimalistic approach, I choose the one parameter that had the most impact/relevance in the context of a drummachine (and for me that was resonance). [...]
It just depends how far you want to go with this and how many controls your are willing to provide.
I still like the idea hinted at by tesselode of having the pitch knob do more than just adjust the pitch (and probably be labeled differently). It's definitely not something we'll have by the next build, but I can imagine having a single knob that sweeps from resonating filter -> pitch shifting -> ring modulation all in one sweep. I'm definitely not convinced that that can be made to work in a sane way, but the idea sounds sexy to me. That kind of keeps in the spirit of the shape knob wrapping up what are usually a bunch of other parameters. (The tricky part feels like that you'd want to present this on one smooth spectrum rather than in a knob with three discreet sections. I'm not sure how the mechanics for that would work, but it feels like an idea worth playing with.)
You're assuming that pitch shifting is in that dimension but it is not for me. I can understand resonant filter 》ring modulation as in going from normal to more extreme and dirty.

Pitch shifting is something I'd want to do independent of that dirt. Like tuning your kick to the key of your song or pitching a hihat up or down.

My idea to tackle this :
Move volume away from the instrument settings and move them on the bottom. You could also add panning > gives a simple mixer.
Keep the tuning knob on instrument level.
Introduce a dirt knob on instrument level which manipulates resonance, ring modulation, distortion, whatever.
Introduce a general analog slider (so on vst level; not instrument level) which emulates analog behavior and saturation.

My 2 cents....

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scotchi
KVRer
24 posts since 1 Apr, 2018 from Berlin, Germany

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Sat May 12, 2018 5:20 pm

Stefken wrote: My idea to tackle this :
Move volume away from the instrument settings and move them on the bottom. You could also add panning > gives a simple mixer.
Yep, it's almost 100% certain that we'll introduce volume and pan controls that aren't part of the "big 4" in the next release. We'll do some mockups Monday-ish and post them here to see if folks have any strong feelings about the placement.
Keep the tuning knob on instrument level.
Introduce a dirt knob on instrument level which manipulates resonance, ring modulation, distortion, whatever.
A "dirt" knob will almost certainly replace the volume knob (though it's unlikely that it'll be fully fleshed out by the next alpha, which we're hoping to build in about a week).

Along those lines, the couple big open questions for us are:
  • Which effects, exactly are dirt? Our assumption was that we'd have something from a soft overdrive (approximately a tube simulator) that rolls over to a full-on distortion, that goes on to bit crushing, etc. In terms of modulation, ring modulation could probably reasonably be called "dirt", but up to now, I haven't imagined that being in there.
  • Is the pitch knob worth its salt? Here I'm trying to merge two important bits of feedback -- yours and tesselode. I think he's right that the control is boring, and I think you're right that it's important. The real open question is that if there's a version of that control that encompasses both. I think it's very possible that you're right, and that there's not, but I'd like for us to play around with a few schemes for overlaying the envelopes and see how musical they feel before making a final call on that.
If there are folks from the broader discussion that are still tracking this thread, I'd love to hear from them at this point:

Do you use pitch controls primarily for color, or for specific technical needs in your track?


There are even things I can imagine like basically layering Spirograph-style pitch shifting with a resonating filter (basically, that you have filtering effects that phase in and out as you turn the knob). That would break continuity to some extent, but it'd leave the interface simple. I think that's the main thing that we're grappling with: how to preserve Sitala's DNA as a super simple drum sampler with also making it a practical and powerful tool.
Introduce a general analog slider (so on vst level; not instrument level) which emulates analog behavior and saturation.
I'm very interested in this idea, and I think you're possibly even right that it should be on by default. It's not something that we'll find in an hour of futzing around, but to experiment there is definitely on our to-do list for the next couple releases.

nitedwella
KVRist
31 posts since 14 Oct, 2012 from nowhere

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Sun May 13, 2018 11:19 am

scotchi wrote:
  • Is the pitch knob worth its salt? Here I'm trying to merge two important bits of feedback -- yours and tesselode. I think he's right that the control is boring, and I think you're right that it's important. The real open question is that if there's a version of that control that encompasses both. I think it's very possible that you're right, and that there's not, but I'd like for us to play around with a few schemes for overlaying the envelopes and see how musical they feel before making a final call on that.
maybe put the pitch control besides volume and pan as one of the "basic" instrument controls? i think having the possibility to tune your sample beforehand is important enough to justify it, and i don't think it would make the interface needlessly complex. you would then be free to make another control that applies pitch modulation (or some other creative effect) and have that as one of the big knobs.

Stefken
KVRian
901 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Sitala drum sampler going into alpha, looking for feedback!

Post Sun May 13, 2018 11:58 am

nitedwella wrote: maybe put the pitch control besides volume and pan as one of the "basic" instrument controls?
I was thinking the same thing. You could make one big volume knob, and 2 smaller ones (one for pan and one for tuning) underneath.
Once you have these set you typically are not going to change them further, while you can use the big four for creative stuff.
That also means you then have one extra knob you can use to assign an effect to.

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