Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
9303 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:26 am

OK, we've got a nice crop of vintage emulations from Synapse, XILS, U-He, Roland, etc. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't help but wonder why no one's moving to emulate some of the classic 90s-00s digital machines from Yamaha, Ensoniq and E-MU. I think it's high time we see a Morpheus and a Fizmo done to the same degree of accuracy as the RePros, Legends, etc. How about a FS1R? Is there a legal reason we're not seeing this?
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

hebex
KVRist
51 posts since 18 Jul, 2004

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:42 am

Sure, but I think why they haven´t been emulated is because for example the Yamaha SY-85/TG-500 synths were sample based.

There is one company that has made a sample library of said synths, http://gospelmusicians.com/tgx-85.html# ... escription

I haven´t tried it yet, I was hoping for them to release it for Kontakt, since I hate Ilok in any shape or form. There is no Kontakt version in sight, though. :-?

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pdxindy
KVRAF
13993 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:04 am

zerocrossing wrote:OK, we've got a nice crop of vintage emulations from Synapse, XILS, U-He, Roland, etc. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't help but wonder why no one's moving to emulate some of the classic 90s-00s digital machines from Yamaha, Ensoniq and E-MU. I think it's high time we see a Morpheus and a Fizmo done to the same degree of accuracy as the RePros, Legends, etc. How about a FS1R? Is there a legal reason we're not seeing this?
Anything with samples is a no go...

Also, vintage analog synths are relatively simple... some of the digital synths are significantly more complex in terms of architecture. That means more work analyzing and modeling all the various components.

And of course... cost of purchasing the original is a factor.

Examigan
KVRAF
4350 posts since 15 Sep, 2005 from East Coast of the USA

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:26 am

zerocrossing wrote:OK, we've got a nice crop of vintage emulations from Synapse, XILS, U-He, Roland, etc. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't help but wonder why no one's moving to emulate some of the classic 90s-00s digital machines from Yamaha, Ensoniq and E-MU. I think it's high time we see a Morpheus and a Fizmo done to the same degree of accuracy as the RePros, Legends, etc. How about a FS1R? Is there a legal reason we're not seeing this?
USQ-1 is pretty cool for a sample-based synth and it can be used in Falcon also.
https://www.uvi.net/usq-1.html

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JoeCat
KVRian
1114 posts since 19 May, 2011 from North Carolina

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:35 am

Rhythmic Robot has some of that in their midst:
https://www.rhythmicrobot.com/keyboard-vault

Puremagnetik did a Fizmo rack for Ableton Live; they usually script this stuff for Kontakt now (in addition) but it doesn't look like this has been updated. Might be worth it just for the waveform samples though:
https://puremagnetik.com/products/wavef ... -live-pack

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zerocrossing
KVRAF
9303 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:20 am

JoeCat wrote:Rhythmic Robot has some of that in their midst:
https://www.rhythmicrobot.com/keyboard-vault

Puremagnetik did a Fizmo rack for Ableton Live; they usually script this stuff for Kontakt now (in addition) but it doesn't look like this has been updated. Might be worth it just for the waveform samples though:
https://puremagnetik.com/products/wavef ... -live-pack
I bought the Transwave instrument, and I still use its samples outside of Live (which I abandoned due to lack of MPE support). I'm using it to make what I call a "Fauxmo" instrument inside of Falcon, but it's no true emulation.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
5726 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:34 am

zerocrossing wrote:OK, we've got a nice crop of vintage emulations from Synapse, XILS, U-He, Roland, etc. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't help but wonder why no one's moving to emulate some of the classic 90s-00s digital machines from Yamaha, Ensoniq and E-MU. I think it's high time we see a Morpheus and a Fizmo done to the same degree of accuracy as the RePros, Legends, etc. How about a FS1R? Is there a legal reason we're not seeing this?
Roland's been putting out quite a few digital synths lately. The D50, JV-1080, and the various SRX boards. Also, at this point, 90's digital synths in VSTi form would be "vintage emulations" too; just not VA's. And we've had digital synth emulations for a while. There's a ton of DX-7 clones and Yamaha-style FM synths, then you've got the Waldorf PPG, Korg has the Wavestation and M1, Arturia has done the Prophet VS, Synclavier, Fairlight. UVI has an emulation of the Emu Emulator II called Emulation II. I'm sure you know about this stuff, but I just want to point out, there's already been a lot of emulations of digital gear too covering most of the classics so it's not like this stuff isn't happening at all. And as pointed out, unless E-Mu licenses out their samples, then someone else doing a digital recreation of something like a Morpheus may be a no-go.

Last point: I think a lot of those sounds/synths just haven't aged all that well, and sound a bit dated, which contributes to why we're not seeing some of these. There may be an iconic preset here and there that's desirable, but to hear a 90's digital synth with their weak filters basically sample and impersonate a real instrument or virtual analog synth, just does nothing for me in this day and age of Kontakt and U-he. I guess one could make that claim of any synth as it's just a matter of opinion, but I think you're seeing the synths getting emulated that the market wants.
Last edited by Funkybot's Evil Twin on Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
zerocrossing
KVRAF
9303 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:36 am

pdxindy wrote:
zerocrossing wrote:OK, we've got a nice crop of vintage emulations from Synapse, XILS, U-He, Roland, etc. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't help but wonder why no one's moving to emulate some of the classic 90s-00s digital machines from Yamaha, Ensoniq and E-MU. I think it's high time we see a Morpheus and a Fizmo done to the same degree of accuracy as the RePros, Legends, etc. How about a FS1R? Is there a legal reason we're not seeing this?
Anything with samples is a no go...

Yeah, I get that sample rights might be hard to clear, but perhaps the synths I crave could be co-developed with the original patent holders, or developed by them exclusively, like Roland is doing with the D50.
pdxindy wrote:Also, vintage analog synths are relatively simple... some of the digital synths are significantly more complex in terms of architecture. That means more work analyzing and modeling all the various components.
Sure, but don't you think that modeling the overdrive-feedback of the Model D was harder than emulating a Morpheus? Look at the complexity of Zebra or Falcon. They're already very complex instruments.
pdxindy wrote:And of course... cost of purchasing the original is a factor.
True, but not everyone who can afford a Morpheus wants a hardware Morpheus. Me included. I think a lot of heavily ITB, or hybrid studio users would love the chance to use an emulation and keep things tidy. I'd pay $200 for an emulation even if I had the original hardware, especially if they expanded the concept a bit.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

chk071
KVRAF
17216 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:39 am

I think the answer is much simper than that. Because most people consider vintage analogs the "holy grail" of sound, not vintage digitals. A vintage analog emu is a guaranteed seller, at least with the well known models. I didn't even know the digital synths you mentioned.

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Teksonik
KVRAF
11533 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:41 am

zerocrossing wrote:OK, we've got a nice crop of vintage emulations from Synapse, XILS, U-He, Roland, etc. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't help but wonder why no one's moving to emulate some of the classic 90s-00s digital machines from Yamaha, Ensoniq and E-MU. I think it's high time we see a Morpheus and a Fizmo done to the same degree of accuracy as the RePros, Legends, etc. How about a FS1R? Is there a legal reason we're not seeing this?
+1,000,000 !!! :tu:

Enough with the Analog Emus......bring on the VFX or SY77 or....... :D
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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martinjuenke
KVRAF
2340 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Germany

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:43 am

Teksonik wrote:
zerocrossing wrote:OK, we've got a nice crop of vintage emulations from Synapse, XILS, U-He, Roland, etc. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't help but wonder why no one's moving to emulate some of the classic 90s-00s digital machines from Yamaha, Ensoniq and E-MU. I think it's high time we see a Morpheus and a Fizmo done to the same degree of accuracy as the RePros, Legends, etc. How about a FS1R? Is there a legal reason we're not seeing this?
+1,000,000 !!! :tu:

Enough with the Analog Emus......bring on the VFX or SY77 or....... :D
SY22? The one thing everything started for me... :D

Flowing atmospheric music
http://www.sonoryth.bandcamp.com/music

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SMH
KVRist
189 posts since 22 Feb, 2017

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:44 am

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote: Last point: I think a lot of those sounds/synths just haven't aged all that well, and sound a bit dated, which contributes to why we're not seeing some of these. There may be an iconic preset here and there that's desirable, but to hear a 90's digital synth with their weak filters basically sample and impersonate a real instrument or virtual analog synth, just does nothing for me in this day and age of Kontakt and U-he. I guess one could make that claim of any synth as it's just a matter of opinion, but I think you're seeing the synths getting emulated that the market wants.
:tu:

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Teksonik
KVRAF
11533 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:45 am

chk071 wrote:I think the answer is much simper than that. Because most people consider vintage analogs the "holy grail" of sound, not vintage digitals. A vintage analog emu is a guaranteed seller, at least with the well known models. I didn't even know the digital synths you mentioned.
That's because most people have a too narrow definition of "Synthesis". It's far more than a Saw Wave through a Low Pass Filter. :wink:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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zerocrossing
KVRAF
9303 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:47 am

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
zerocrossing wrote:OK, we've got a nice crop of vintage emulations from Synapse, XILS, U-He, Roland, etc. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't help but wonder why no one's moving to emulate some of the classic 90s-00s digital machines from Yamaha, Ensoniq and E-MU. I think it's high time we see a Morpheus and a Fizmo done to the same degree of accuracy as the RePros, Legends, etc. How about a FS1R? Is there a legal reason we're not seeing this?
Roland's been putting out quite a few digital synths lately. The D50, JV-1080, and the various SRX boards. Also, at this point, 90's digital synths in VSTi form would be "vintage emulations" too; just not VA's. And we've had [digital] synth emulations for a while. There's a ton of DX-7 clones and style synths, then you've got the Waldorf PPG, Korg has the Wavestation and M1, Arturia has done the Prophet VS, Synclavier, Fairlight. UVI has an emulation of the Emu Emulator II called Emulation II. I'm sure you know about this stuff, but I just want to point out, there's already been a lot of emulations of digital gear too covering most of the classics so it's not like this stuff isn't happening at all. And as pointed out, unless E-Mu licenses out their samples, then someone else doing a digital recreation of something like a Morpheus may be a no-go.

Last point: I think a lot of those sounds/synths just haven't aged all that well, and sound a bit dated, which contributes to why we're not seeing some of these. There may be an iconic preset here and there that's desirable, but to hear a 90's digital synth with their weak filters basically sample and impersonate a real instrument or virtual analog synth, just does nothing for me in this day and age of Kontakt and U-he. I guess one could make that claim of any synth as it's just a matter of opinion, but I think you're seeing the synths getting emulated that the market wants.
Yeah, I agree that not all the early digital synths are worth emulating, but I do think that specifically the Morpheus and Fizmo are interesting and unique enough that they'd hold up. My initial post was inspired by a Morpheus demo Youtube shoved in my face, and I've heard tons of Fizmo demos that always get me. Of course, I can get close with the modern software you mention, but having an emulation would be really nice. UVI thinks these synths are desirable enough to create sample based instruments. I imagine they generate money. Why wouldn't a good emulation?

Oh, and I really do appreciate the DX 7 V, Synclavier V and CMI V plugins (I think Prophet V needs a major once-over to be great), Korg's emulations and to a lesser degree, the Roland stuff. PPG 3 is a go to, as well as impOSCar 2. I'm just wondering why there's still a hole in the market, considering how popular some of the synths I've mentioned were. (and weren't, but have become popular post mortem)
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

User avatar
Teksonik
KVRAF
11533 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: Enough with the vintage emulations! Bring on the digital!

Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:51 am

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote: Last point: I think a lot of those sounds/synths just haven't aged all that well, and sound a bit dated,
That can certainly be said for Analog sounds as well....... :wink:
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:but I think you're seeing the synths getting emulated that the market wants.
Sometimes the market doesn't know what it wants until it's put on the plate in front of them. I'm certainly more likely to buy a VFX emulation than yet another Analog emu. How many ways do we need to make the same patches over and over with only slight difference in character and quality ?
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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