What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

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Well I have much more experience with software synths than with hadware (the only HW I ever owned for long time was Virus TI) so my opinion may be worth nothing, but I think the main difference between SW and HW synths in general is felxibility. Which can be good or bad. Virus TI has quite a lot of different features, it has VA, FM, different wavetable modes, full rack of effects, a modmatrix, etc. I think it's one of the most feature-rich hardware synths ever made. But compared to something like Zebra or Serum it's a joke, these have much more options to shape the waveform at the oscillator level, allow importing user waveforms, have wide array of different filters, Zebra has flexible semi-modular signalflow to boot. This comes with a price though. Basically, any reasonable patch made in Virus will sound good. You can take naked OSC2, crank the FM know in a default FM mode and it will already sound dope, this sound has been used in numerous psytrance tracks for years. Well, this all will sound "like a Virus" but this all will sound good. And despite its relatively limited architecture it will take months if not years to explore everything which it is capable of. In Zebra one will have to build the sound character from the ground up. I'm often reading that Zebra sound very neutral and uncoloured and I fully agree with that. A skilled sound-designer probably sees this as a "pro" because they aren't limited by certain inherent sound character but an average user will probably opt for something that gets the job done faster.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

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justin3am wrote:None of these points (made by marooned ufo or Gear Nostalgia) are going to convince anyone who has already made up their mind about what they want to use. What is the point of continuously making these arguments? To persuade n00bs that one way is better (or worse) than another? Seems silly to me. Every approach has it's pros and cons.

Just let people decide on their own, what they want to use.
1. This is a public forum where people discuss topics.
2. The OP asked a question, answers follow.
3. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
4. We don't need someone such as yourself governing what people can and cannot discuss and even worse how we're supposed to do it. As long as the rules are followed, like not taking it personal with attacks.
5. Why waste your time commenting on something that doesn't interest you? Or does it?
6. Maybe because it's making you feel less secure in your reasoning and decision when an opposing opinion makes a lot of sense.
7. You obviously feel threatened and this is your way of trying to convince everyone your thoughts are the only way to do things.
8. People get a little defensive when their investment is going down in value.
9. People don't like to hear the truth when it's negative to their line of thinking.
10. Relax, no one is forcing people to think a specific way.

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justin3am wrote:Just let people decide on their own, what they want to use.
I want to use your stuff. Please post it over.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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recursive one wrote:I'm often reading that Zebra sound very neutral and uncoloured and I fully agree with that. A skilled sound-designer probably sees this as a "pro" because they aren't limited by certain inherent sound character but an average user will probably opt for something that gets the job done faster.
That is just Zebra though... and not indicative of software in general. RePro has a certain character and you basically cannot make it sound bad.

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pdxindy wrote:
recursive one wrote:I'm often reading that Zebra sound very neutral and uncoloured and I fully agree with that. A skilled sound-designer probably sees this as a "pro" because they aren't limited by certain inherent sound character but an average user will probably opt for something that gets the job done faster.
That is just Zebra though... and not indicative of software in general. RePro has a certain character and you basically cannot make it sound bad.
But this one is way less flexible compared even to Virus. It's sort of either or in sofware, either very nice sounding characterful synths with very limited features (often they are emulations of some quite old analogue hardware) or the jack-of-all-trades kind of supersynths which do everything but have that "neutral" sound
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

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pdxindy wrote:RePro has a certain character and you basically cannot make it sound bad.
Everything can be made sound bad. ;)

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recursive one wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
recursive one wrote:I'm often reading that Zebra sound very neutral and uncoloured and I fully agree with that. A skilled sound-designer probably sees this as a "pro" because they aren't limited by certain inherent sound character but an average user will probably opt for something that gets the job done faster.
That is just Zebra though... and not indicative of software in general. RePro has a certain character and you basically cannot make it sound bad.
But this one is way less flexible compared even to Virus. It's sort of either or in sofware, either very nice sounding characterful synths with very limited features (often they are emulations of some quite old analogue hardware) or the jack-of-all-trades kind of supersynths which do everything but have that "neutral" sound
Maybe sorta... but there are plenty of powerful soft synths that have their own sound. Not the Virus sound, but their own sound.

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chk071 wrote:
pdxindy wrote:RePro has a certain character and you basically cannot make it sound bad.
Everything can be made sound bad. ;)
yeah, but you'll have to work at it with RePro! :hihi:

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Fair enough. I like big sweet spots too. :)

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recursive one wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
recursive one wrote:I'm often reading that Zebra sound very neutral and uncoloured and I fully agree with that. A skilled sound-designer probably sees this as a "pro" because they aren't limited by certain inherent sound character but an average user will probably opt for something that gets the job done faster.
That is just Zebra though... and not indicative of software in general. RePro has a certain character and you basically cannot make it sound bad.
But this one is way less flexible compared even to Virus. It's sort of either or in sofware, either very nice sounding characterful synths with very limited features (often they are emulations of some quite old analogue hardware) or the jack-of-all-trades kind of supersynths which do everything but have that "neutral" sound
But there are synths which are very versatile and sounds even better than hardware :D
F.e. P900

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marooned ufo wrote:
GearNostalgia wrote:1, It feels more real to work with real controllers and keys
2, You can sell your gear on later if you want to and in some cases you don't loose money on it. Much software can't be resold.
3, The hardware was made for playing its sounds so it seldom locks up or get weird.
1. A midi controller does exactly the same thing.

1a. Roughly 90% are bedroom producers that point and click with the mouse and midi editor anyway.

2. You can resell your plugins too, but why buy something you don't plan to keep in the first place? Now a days the value of analog gear is going down with the advent of modern emulations and clones.

3. Hardware has tons of issues, missing keys, broken knobs, going out of tune, burnt out circuit boards, power issues, degradation over time, components have a lifespan and cleaning and maintenance. All of which can be very expensive, the more vintage it is, the higher the price goes up for parts and service.

3a. Takes up a lot of space, electricity bill and where you keep it needs to be safe and secure from theft.
A midi controller is not the same thing at all. It needs a computer and a soundcard to produce any audio. The feel is different. You have to set it up. etc.etc. A hardware synth just works. Its only purpose is to let the user make sound.

I haven't really noticed prices of vintage gear dropping. Not the good stuff anyway ... altho' compared to 20 years ago hardware seems incredibly cheap at the moment. I know a lot of people buying synths and modulars as a hobby, rather than to "produce" a tune or song.

Software can "break" too with OS updates. lack of compatability, whatever ... and computers. monitors midi controllers etc can break and cost money to run.

I agree with Justin ... there is no competition between software & harware. Its all good, and works together like what would have felt like a dream not that long ago. Amazing times. Amazing toys. We're so lucky.

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It's sort of either or in sofware, either very nice sounding characterful synths with very limited features (often they are emulations of some quite old analogue hardware) or the jack-of-all-trades kind of supersynths which do everything but have that "neutral" sound
Nothing I use (I only use software) frequently is either of those. In fact, there is one thing I have - Monark - which is an emulation of something old. And it's a particular character for a particular role, musically. I don't think the word neutral there conveys universally, anyway. It isn't my experience so I can't identify with it, I don't know what it represents.

What music does one make with this or the other tool? A lot of this looks like a fetish. Not judging, it's a nice thing even, just sayin'.
Last edited by jancivil on Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pdxindy wrote:
recursive one wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
recursive one wrote:I'm often reading that Zebra sound very neutral and uncoloured and I fully agree with that. A skilled sound-designer probably sees this as a "pro" because they aren't limited by certain inherent sound character but an average user will probably opt for something that gets the job done faster.
That is just Zebra though... and not indicative of software in general. RePro has a certain character and you basically cannot make it sound bad.
But this one is way less flexible compared even to Virus. It's sort of either or in sofware, either very nice sounding characterful synths with very limited features (often they are emulations of some quite old analogue hardware) or the jack-of-all-trades kind of supersynths which do everything but have that "neutral" sound
Maybe sorta... but there are plenty of powerful soft synths that have their own sound. Not the Virus sound, but their own sound.
Yes, sure. I can think of Rapid, Massive, Spire, Viper (this one has just exactly "the virus sound", but it doesn't do wavetables). Probably Bazille, sounds very good but it is sort of specialized on certain things, but it can actually sound very diverse. Maybe also Icarus, I dismissed it originally because I didn't exactly like the sound character I heard in the presets but people seem to do interesting things with it.

Probably yes, my assumption was a stretch. I just keep reading how people are always asking for more and more features while nobody seems to be concerned about the sound quality/character, and on the other hand, when I listen to modern psytarnce, progressive trance, psy-downtempo releases, I often hear very complicated sound design with lots of modulation and stuff, but I rarely hear sounds that do actually blow my socks off just purely by their timbral qualities, if you understand what I mean (and when I do, later it often turns out that the artist was using some hardware). I can't be 100% certain that this is because of hadrware vs sofwtare though, probably it just reflects the change of the production and sound-design approaches.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

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whyterabbyt wrote:
justin3am wrote:Just let people decide on their own, what they want to use.
I want to use your stuff. Please post it over.
Ask vurt, I don't think he's using the WTPA? sampler I sent him. lol
Seriously though, I'm working on something that you may get your hands on one day... If I can manage to get the power supply secured so it can survive an overseas voyage. :dog: :o

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marooned ufo wrote:
justin3am wrote:None of these points (made by marooned ufo or Gear Nostalgia) are going to convince anyone who has already made up their mind about what they want to use. What is the point of continuously making these arguments? To persuade n00bs that one way is better (or worse) than another? Seems silly to me. Every approach has it's pros and cons.

Just let people decide on their own, what they want to use.
1. This is a public forum where people discuss topics.
2. The OP asked a question, answers follow.
3. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
4. We don't need someone such as yourself governing what people can and cannot discuss and even worse how we're supposed to do it. As long as the rules are followed, like not taking it personal with attacks.
5. Why waste your time commenting on something that doesn't interest you? Or does it?
6. Maybe because it's making you feel less secure in your reasoning and decision when an opposing opinion makes a lot of sense.
7. You obviously feel threatened and this is your way of trying to convince everyone your thoughts are the only way to do things.
8. People get a little defensive when their investment is going down in value.
9. People don't like to hear the truth when it's negative to their line of thinking.
10. Relax, no one is forcing people to think a specific way.
:clap: :lol:
You really got me figured out there.

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