What is it about Sylenth1 ?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
12682 posts since 5 Jun, 2012 from Portugal

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:58 am

Regarding your long post, we continue to disagree on virtually everything, but I only have so much time and I am sure no further discussion will change my or your views. So, you believe what you want and I will do the same :roll:

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BONES
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7216 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:27 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:37 am
1) Sorry, but it sounds horrible to my ears.
Great, I'd be really disappointed if it didn't, given your total lack of clues.
And it's a nightmare to make sit in the mix of a song with vocals.
Stop changing the goalposts. We weren't out to make a sound that would sit in a mix with vocals, we were demonstrating what a "warm" sound was. This is actually something we are using on one of the songs on our new album and it fits in really well, because it forms the intro to the song and needs to sound as big as the full mix that follows, which actually features two other instances of DUNE, one doing the main bass line and the other doing the kick (which is something DUNE is absurdly good at).
It has that typical modern, exaggerated, all over the place sound that I despise.
Really? It sounds like vintage Vangelis to me, as I'm sure he'd have made it if he had the same tools at his disposal when he did Blade Runner as I do today. I think that's where you go wrong - you assume that sounds from back then were meant to be like that, when the reality is that that was as good as they could manage. I guarantee they'd have done better if they had the same tools to work with that we do today.
I assume I could get a really big pad out of Sylenth1 as well if I tried, but I haven't so far because I would not know what to do with something like that, anyway.
There you go, then, I've just given you the perfect idea of how/where to use a decent sound. It's OK, though, I won't expect any royalties.
To the contrary, I try to keep my patches compact, for instance by setting oscillator stereo width to 20% or so. Classic analog synths were even mono before effects.
So what? Again, that's all they had to work with, they'd have sacrificed their first-born back then to be able to do what we can today.
I also use the eq a lot to cut away excessive bass and treble. But maybe I will try it later on just to see how it sounds on S1. What key characteristics did you use? (number/settings of waves/oscillators/layers, effects, saturation/distortion etc.)
It's based on two different "KS" presets. I can't remember their names now (I'm at work). Most of it is whatever's at 006 in the Pads category (or maybe 005) with extra stuff from the preset after it thrown in to layer 5. From there I added velocity mod to amp and filter, turned up the drive on all filters, played around with the distortion (which was already on) and changed the filter envelope to match the pattern being played. Then I added vibrato (with delay) when I noticed you had it on your demo (I never use it). In the end it is mostly drive in the filters and distortion on the output, as well as some noise, but that's exactly what "warm" is. I'll save the patch for you tonight.
2) I don't think it sounds analog. For instance there is something muffled about it, it lacks definition and shine, very different from my JX-8P. Hard to describe. It is the very sound character I didn't like when I demoed it.
Of course it doesn't sound like a JX-8P, that's a Roland thing and, therefore, sounds very ordinary. Even Roland haven't been stupid enough to try and recreate that thing. My sound is more like a big ol' Moog or Oberheim synth, something with a proper bottom end. Except, of course, it's nothing like that because it has something like 24 oscillators going per note, which is stuff poor old Dr Moog or Mr Oberheim could only have dreamed about back in the day. That's why I love my Analog Keys - it's a proper analogue synth that isn't afraid to fully exploit the possibilities of modern technology. That makes it sound way better than any ancient piece of junk, while simultaneously being way more versatile into the bargain.

"Muffled" would be where I set the filter cutoff, because that's the job a low-pass filter is supposed to do - filter out the high frequencies - although the resonance puts just the right amount of emphasis on what is there around the cutoff frequency to give it the majesty I was looking for. The filter is actually completely closed on four of the five layers, only opening in response to velocity combined with an envelope (the envelope gives it movement, velocity gives it expression). Using different key track amounts on each layer allows me to get different emphasis on different notes, which is why the last note, the really low one, sounds more raw than the others. You are really clutching at straws here, it is quite sad to watch.
3) Aren't you a bit old for that analogue joke, insinuation or whatever it is supposed to be? ;)
Not as long as it has the intended result.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Uno

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wagtunes
KVRAF
13999 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:39 pm

@Bones

Arguing with FLS is like expecting a cat to bark like a dog and read Poe by candlelight.

Do yourself a favor and cut your losses before you end up regretting all the time you wasted. He is stuck in 1977 and there's nothing anybody can do about that.

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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
12682 posts since 5 Jun, 2012 from Portugal

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:15 pm

"Lack of clues"? It simply sounds horrible to me, sounds are a matter of taste. If a person does not like pizza you can hardly say he or she has no clue. You are just outright intolerant towards people with other tastes and opinions.

You presented a sound which in your view is warm. Fine with me, but it is a matter of taste, I just don't find it warm, to the contrary, it sounds harsh to my ears. Distortion makes me cringe. Yes, your patch does sound modern to me, it has a lot of effects on it, it sounds big and spacey like so many Dune 2 sounds.
What kind of music do you make that uses such sounds? I can't think of many genres where that sound might fit.

By contrast, the synth of the intro to Foreigner's Waiting for a girl like you is perfect and magical in my view.

What makes you think you can read artists' minds? How do you know they would have liked to use Dune 2 instead of their Oberheims or Jupiters?
Either way, I am happy they used what they had to use because otherwise it would not sound the way it does.

I like the JX-8P's sound, including the free emulation. And I am not alone, that synth was used by many bands in the 80's. It looked futuristic back then, but its sound was old-skool.

24 oscillators per note?! That's the problem, overkill :) A good synth does not need more than 1 or 2 per note to sound great, imho.

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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
12682 posts since 5 Jun, 2012 from Portugal

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:23 pm

wagtunes wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:39 pm
@Bones

Arguing with FLS is like expecting a cat to bark like a dog and read Poe by candlelight.

Do yourself a favor and cut your losses before you end up regretting all the time you wasted. He is stuck in 1977 and there's nothing anybody can do about that.
Why would I bark like a dog if I were a cat?! 8)

1977 to 1983 was a great time, I am happy to be stuck there :wink:

5Lives
KVRian
518 posts since 10 Nov, 2005 from New York City

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:28 pm

I do personally think fluffy’s audio samples sounded better than the Dune ones, though in the mix, it would be indiscernible. Never have gotten along with Dune’s interface personally nor have I found the sound all that inspiring. Sylenth has that weird special mix of a very basic simple interface and a pleasing sound (IMO - and apparently many others). Not super deep but most producers don’t need something all that deep.

Not sure what other synth really captures that today (though Massive is pretty straightforward to use and introduced many to a now commonly used modulation UI - probably a reason why it became so popular).

EnGee
KVRAF
5029 posts since 7 Oct, 2005

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:28 pm

They both have different tastes! I don't know exactly what they are arguing about! :hihi:
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acYm
KVRian
789 posts since 11 Sep, 2015

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:33 pm

Sylenth1 is the most classy vst synth. Incredibly polished and comfortable, it just transpires professionalism. Some people in this funny thread claim that Spire has replaced or superceded it.

I'm sorry, but Spire is made like a freeware compared to Sylenth1. The automation isn't even done right, noob stuff really. Not in the same league whatsoever in terms of presentation.

goldenanalog
KVRAF
1624 posts since 7 Dec, 2005 from somewhere between analog and digital

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:05 pm

I'm just super-stoked that Sylenth1 is *still* being talked (argued) about soooo many years after release! Yay! Congrats, Lennard, for an incredibly successful product!

IMHO: It's still very much a great synth (superb, actually!) - my daughter heard me messing with the current build about a month ago; and made a comment along the lines of saying that she was quite impressed with it's sound!

We're just lucky to have access to such glorious, affordable tools like: Sylenth1, Zebra, Dune 2, Hive, Spire, etc. etc. (and we all have our favorites - mine probably is Spire; but I will *never* sell my license to either Sylenth1 or Zebra, to name a couple)

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BONES
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7216 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:17 pm

wagtunes wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:39 pm
Do yourself a favor and cut your losses before you end up regretting all the time you wasted. He is stuck in 1977 and there's nothing anybody can do about that.
It's OK, I find it quite amusing to see just how big a fool he is willing to make of himself. Plus it's a very slow day at work today.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Uno

TheSynthScientist
KVRist
82 posts since 29 Nov, 2018

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:31 pm

wagtunes wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:39 pm
@Bones

Arguing with FLS is like expecting a cat to bark like a dog and read Poe by candlelight.
Well, having a dog that can read Poe by candlelight would be nice.
Mine can only read Rumi.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7216 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:32 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:15 pm
"Lack of clues"? It simply sounds horrible to me, sounds are a matter of taste.
You see, that's just rubbish. Did I have a go at that Dog-awful thing you posted? No, because whether I like it or not is not relevant to the reason you posted it. The fact that you have to get stuck in right away shows your complete inability to be objective and rational. It shows everyone that your opinion is worthless. How can you not see that?
If a person does not like pizza you can hardly say he or she has no clue.
You can if they say "that pizza is horrible" when they mean "I don't like food that is circular", which would be about the same level of pointlessness as your post.
You are just outright intolerant towards people with other tastes and opinions.
No, I'm intolerant of fools who can't be objective. People who can't say "I know there are much better synths out there today but this one works well enough for me, despite it's obvious limitations". Why is it that the thing you like has to be the best? Why can't you accept that it's nowhere near the best but you just like it? It doesn't make sense to me that you have to be like that.
You presented a sound which in your view is warm. Fine with me, but it is a matter of taste, I just don't find it warm, to the contrary, it sounds harsh to my ears.
If that's the case, then your understanding of warm and harsh are completely different to everyone else's. Because if you wan harsh, I can give you harsh (as soon as I get home from work), which to most people would be things like hard sync sounds and edgy digital stuff that Massive is good at. We actually had someone come up to the front of the stage an d ask us to turn down a sound that was doing their head in - that's harsh! (Naturally, we turned it up instead.)
Distortion makes me cringe.
The distortion in S1 definitely makes me cringe, too. But the one in DUNE or, even better in Thorn, is a thing of rare beauty, able to be so subtle you can't hear it or so brutal it completely destroys the original timbre.
Yes, your patch does sound modern to me, it has a lot of effects on it, it sounds big and spacey like so many Dune 2 sounds.
It has delay on it, hardly the end of the world.
What kind of music do you make that uses such sounds? I can't think of many genres where that sound might fit.
Have you not seen Blade Runner 2049? Plenty of that sort of thing, and even more way-out, on that soundtrack. But we do EBM. That means we use whatever sounds we want which, in practical terms means we can create sounds and then build something around them. And honestly, who would want to restrict themselves to krappy old sounds from a time when synth and production technology was woefully inadequate? I bought my first synth in 1981 but it has only been in the last 10-15 years that I've felt I finally had the technology to make the sounds and music the way they sound in my head.
By contrast, the synth of the intro to Foreigner's Waiting for a girl like you is perfect and magical in my view.
It's just a strangled-off pad. You could do it on anything, really. Or do you mean the arpeggio, which is equally generic. If you want to hear some great sounds from that era (or even earlier), try these -
Ultravox - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW9ImnTL2jk
John Foxx - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjA-aFWOZOw
Gary Numan - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0WNbm1jz6A
What makes you think you can read artists' minds? How do you know they would have liked to use Dune 2 instead of their Oberheims or Jupiters?
Here is an old Devo song you may remember - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xfBlP2zl2I
Whilst this one is from their last album, in 2012 or so - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ62Mmu2dws

Here are two Simple Minds songs, one from 1983 and another from 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_H7QykJ53g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdWv1ZXnP5Q (great video!)

And another couple, this time from Die Krupps - 1982 and 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpnkEVFwKrA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4foIeugYl8

You can hear in each case how the band's sound has evolved to make full use of available technology, Far from being stuck in the past, they do what they always did - push the boundaries.
24 oscillators per note?! That's the problem, overkill :) A good synth does not need more than 1 or 2 per note to sound great, imho.
Which is precisely what makes you sound like a fool. How do you think S1 gets it's supersaw thing happening? The JX-8P was likely doing something similar - stacking virtual oscillators. The difference is DUNE doesn't hide that from the user and reports every oscillator in use. In the old days they simply stacked synths in a mix. Later they used multi-timbral stacked sounds, like Combinations in a Korg M1 or Triton, but today we can roll it all into a single preset on a single synth, saving bucketloads of time and effort. It's a natural progression, not some new-fangled voodoo.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Uno

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7216 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:38 pm

goldenanalog wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:05 pm
IMHO: It's still very much a great synth (superb, actually!) - my daughter heard me messing with the current build about a month ago; and made a comment along the lines of saying that she was quite impressed with it's sound!
Wait on, your daughter likes it so it must be good? Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?
acYm wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:33 pm
I'm sorry, but Spire is made like a freeware compared to Sylenth1. The automation isn't even done right, noob stuff really. Not in the same league whatsoever in terms of presentation.
No, Spire's presentation is far cleaner and much more modern. However, in terms of sound they are both very, very ordinary. Honestly, if they were free I doubt I'd use them. In fact, the more I dig into DUNE, the more I wonder if I actually need anything else. So if nothing else, this ridiculous discussion has forced me to get over my idiotic prejudice against DUNE's workflow and really get stuck into it. So thanks, losers, for being such dumb-asses.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Uno

acYm
KVRian
789 posts since 11 Sep, 2015

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:54 pm

if that's what you think, it just means you can't really tell. you must make patches with the mouse. I use a high-end control surface, and let me tell you, Sylenth1 feels as solid as any quality hardware instrument and offers flawless integration, whereas Spire is barely usable in this regard. behind the pretty gui hides a really crude implementation, I couldn't believe it the first time I saw it. it does have the advantage of onboard macros though.

goldenanalog
KVRAF
1624 posts since 7 Dec, 2005 from somewhere between analog and digital

Re: What is it about Sylenth1 ?

Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:11 pm

BONES wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:38 pm
Wait on, your daughter likes it so it must be good? Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?
Please allow me to context that for you, Mr. Bones:

My daughter has heard me play hundreds of sounds over the years from a variety of different instruments - she seldom, if ever, reacts to anything that I play (and I don't solicit responses) - maybe it's that she's earworn; or I'm boring - or both! I dunno; I don't ask. So for her to react (even react!) and in a positive way is certainly noteworthy.

Bottom line: I think (like many others) that Sylenth1 is brilliant - it's certainly worthy of the largely positive feedback it has received over better then a decade.

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