Vember Audio Surge is now open-source

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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KVRAF
21710 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:55 am

It's gonna be a side-by-side install to Surge 1.9, hence the new name and a new plugin ID. It differs in a very significant way that it's using a completely different back-end framework (JUCE instead of VSTGUI), which is reason enough to do it as a side by side install, in order to ensure all old Surge projects load just as they used to.

It also makes comparing behaviors between VSTGUI and JUCE versions much easier, and as such also reporting and fixing any new bugs also much easier.

That said, yes, there are also new features coming (of course!), one of those wasn't possible in VSTGUI Surge due to VSTGUI lacking a proper widget to enable that feature (Formula modulator with multiline text editor). Plus, developing with JUCE is just so, so much easier and their support is great.

KVRAF
2123 posts since 3 Dec, 2006

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:04 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:00 pm
surreal wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:13 am
Just wondering. .I have seen many projects similar to this go back to being a paid product after many improvements
Surge is open source, free as in speech. That its also free as in beer is a side effect… Surge is not similar to projects you seem to think of, they had been just free as in beer…
GPL should be taught at school…
Hi Tj Shredder
Thank you for the clarification and thank you also for getting my hardware post moved to the correct forum, I really appreciate your help there! :)

KVRAF
2123 posts since 3 Dec, 2006

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:11 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:55 am
It's gonna be a side-by-side install to Surge 1.9, hence the new name and a new plugin ID. It differs in a very significant way that it's using a completely different back-end framework (JUCE instead of VSTGUI), which is reason enough to do it as a side by side install, in order to ensure all old Surge projects load just as they used to.

It also makes comparing behaviors between VSTGUI and JUCE versions much easier, and as such also reporting and fixing any new bugs also much easier.

That said, yes, there are also new features coming (of course!), one of those wasn't possible in VSTGUI Surge due to VSTGUI lacking a proper widget to enable that feature (Formula modulator with multiline text editor). Plus, developing with JUCE is just so, so much easier and their support is great.
Thank you Mario for the explanation! Is there any e.t.a for the Surge Xt version

KVRAF
8151 posts since 6 Oct, 2004

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:12 am

Maybe 'Surge beta-V.#' would be more direct and traditional.
Thanks for the sensible explanation, and the ongoing work.
It's great to have these excellent instruments, and be able to mention them to people new to virtual instruments, or to those fallen on, or born into, financial difficulty.
Cheers

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KVRAF
21710 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:18 am

Rough ETA is this Fall, worst case scenario end of year.

@glokraw - but this is not a beta, it's a full-fledged new version of Surge. Makes no sense to use "beta" anywhere in plugin ID and name IMO.

KVRist
437 posts since 4 Jan, 2007

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:54 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:55 am
Plus, developing with JUCE is just so, so much easier and their support is great.
Word, very positive experience here too.

KVRist
482 posts since 27 Feb, 2007

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:31 pm

cpu hit is very low on this , all fine and dandy but this unison/ detune is not as nice as lets say charlatan vsti, id change the algo or add another one to choose from more rolandy kind.Ita not linear but kinda specific on rolands, it turns into string sound very nicely

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KVRAF
21710 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:53 pm

We won't be changing the unison setup since that would break people's patches and projects. Additional unison modes are contemplated but are not happening in the next release.

KVRAF
8151 posts since 6 Oct, 2004

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:07 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:18 am
@glokraw - but this is not a beta, it's a full-fledged new version of Surge. Makes no sense to use "beta" anywhere in plugin ID and name IMO.
Technically, you said above:

"It differs in a very significant way that it's using a completely different back-end framework (JUCE instead of VSTGUI), which is reason enough to do it as a side by side install, in order to ensure all old Surge projects load just as they used to."

...and if the team still doesn't know that even most old projects will load, it's the same kind of beta that IK and NI and friends routinely put out on the shelves for sale as finished releases. . So you're in good company, while donating your time and skill. In essence, it's the state of the market, we live with it, and make music. :hyper:
(To me, 'Beta' is not an insult, just a label. Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder :wink: )

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KVRAF
21710 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:12 pm

OK I should've said "it's not going to be released in beta state". :hihi:

KVRist
482 posts since 27 Feb, 2007

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:52 pm

Yeah im aware of backwards compatibility so id definitely prefere another algorithm to be switched on.
That unison is definitely ano no for my taste, it could be fine for others but from 30 upwards to 100 is not useable for anything but random out of tune noise, thats quite a bit of lost space for sliding it up so high between 30-100 without any benefit to the sound.
I dont think it followed any known algorihtms and its just linear math formula slapped on top of number of voices.
Sure You can get some roland like unisons from junos on it but in a bit differnt way using different values and more voices than needed and JP like supersaw is only partially possible with some amounts of detune values , JP had more range for stringlike sounds, here its junison or out of tuned mess a bit higher.

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KVRAF
21710 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:02 pm

And then there's Extend range option where you can put unison detune up to 12 semitones. Which is really nice with 3 voice unison, for example :)

The parameter scaling for that control is linear from 0 to 100%. We won't be changing that. If you need greater precision, you can use Shift for finer slider movement, and you can also type up to 6 digits of decimal precision if you enable the High precision value displays option on. :)

That said, if you want a Roland supersaw, there's plenty of other options out there...

KVRist
404 posts since 25 Dec, 2018

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:51 pm

glokraw wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:07 pm
EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:18 am
@glokraw - but this is not a beta, it's a full-fledged new version of Surge. Makes no sense to use "beta" anywhere in plugin ID and name IMO.
Technically, you said above:

"It differs in a very significant way that it's using a completely different back-end framework (JUCE instead of VSTGUI), which is reason enough to do it as a side by side install, in order to ensure all old Surge projects load just as they used to."

...and if the team still doesn't know that even most old projects will load, it's the same kind of beta that IK and NI and friends routinely put out on the shelves for sale as finished releases. . So you're in good company, while donating your time and skill. In essence, it's the state of the market, we live with it, and make music. :hyper:
(To me, 'Beta' is not an insult, just a label. Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder :wink: )
We have regular regression tests that patches load and play which we run on every install. Right now xt loads every 1.9 patch in the factory library and plays it compatibly except where we have fixed a couple of bugs that made those patches actually wrong in 1.9

The thing we really need to change is the way daw automation maps to parameters. That’s the breaking change in xt from surge 19 that motivates a new is. Otherwise we would probably call it surge 1.10. But every param has to get a new vst3 id at the edge of the synth.

This one time break of moving to the juce parameter mapping mechanism means that many of the really expansive feature requests people have made will be possible in 2022 (6 oscillators; multi parameter filters; and more). We will hint at these in the xt milestone too.

There’s also no secrets here. As tj shredder said the gpl3 license means you will always have the source to surge and we’ve set up an infrastructure that makes free binaries for people who can’t self build (with thanks to Microsoft for the free compute). Our entire book of work is in world readable GitHub issues so you can see and comment on what we are planning. Our discord is open to anyone as long as you aren’t a jerk. And we regularly onboard devs who want to expand the synth.

I haven’t used software by Ik or ni so I can’t evaluate your comment on their quality. But I hope this explanation helps clear up how surge works and why we have the version break.

KVRAF
8574 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:01 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:53 pm
We won't be changing the unison setup since that would break people's patches and projects. Additional unison modes are contemplated but are not happening in the next release.
Aren’t you guys doing a new plugin ID and .dll? I’d say start fresh if it’s ultimately for the best in the longer term. Both can live side by side.

But I don’t expect that to change anyone’s plans. :)

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KVRAF
21710 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:39 pm

Yes, new ID, but patch compatibility to 1.9 and before remains 100%.

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