Diva and Zebra questions

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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wagtunes
KVRAF
13955 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Post Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:54 pm

chk071 wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:35 pm
TBH, i don't find the example you posted above very punchy. Or snappy. Which, in my book, are two different things.

Here's a sound snippet i always post to demonstrate very fast, snappy envelopes:

https://soundcloud.com/chk-sound/monark-snap

"Punchy" i'd rather define as something heavy, weighty, and beefy. Fluffy demonstrated that pretty well with his Sylenth1 patch. And Sylenth1 is one of those synths which can get pretty "punchy". It doesn't take fast envelopes, and considerable "snappy"-ness to do a punchy sound though. In my opinion. Your definition may differ.
Now THAT sounds cool.

What is it that makes one envelope snappy and another mushy? I can never understand that if you're doing the exact same settings on two different synths. Some synths, even with fast decay times, sound like hitting mashed potatoes.

chk071
KVRAF
17594 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:59 pm

Good question. I never really found any information in that regard. People typically argue that you only need a certain slope on the envelope stages, or a MSEG, to make everything snappy. Which couldn't be further from the truth, in my experience.

Bulent from KV331 Audio once mentioned that the envelopes on Synthmaster are too slow, and he "fixed" that in a newer version of the synth. I don't know if that's true for any synth though. Some synth's envelopes sound soft, lame, and thin like paper, while others have real punch.

AnX
KVRAF
3380 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:02 pm

wagtunes wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:54 pm
What is it that makes one envelope snappy and another mushy? I can never understand that if you're doing the exact same settings on two different synths. Some synths, even with fast decay times, sound like hitting mashed potatoes.
depends how they are coded. Could have pre defined times and/or diff curves (log/lin/exp) or they could be both to mimic whatever synth they are emulating

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
5776 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:58 pm

AnX wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:02 pm
wagtunes wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:54 pm
What is it that makes one envelope snappy and another mushy? I can never understand that if you're doing the exact same settings on two different synths. Some synths, even with fast decay times, sound like hitting mashed potatoes.
depends how they are coded. Could have pre defined times and/or diff curves (log/lin/exp) or they could be both to mimic whatever synth they are emulating
Yes. Also, it's just not the shape but how the envelope times are scaled across the length of the knob or fader. For instance, a synth that devotes 50% of the knob range to the first 600ms of the attack might seem punchier than a synth that covers that range in the first 25% of the control. Even if the envelope shapes themselves would be otherwise identical when properly matched.

User avatar
pdxindy
KVRAF
14179 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:22 pm

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:58 pm
AnX wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:02 pm
wagtunes wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:54 pm
What is it that makes one envelope snappy and another mushy? I can never understand that if you're doing the exact same settings on two different synths. Some synths, even with fast decay times, sound like hitting mashed potatoes.
depends how they are coded. Could have pre defined times and/or diff curves (log/lin/exp) or they could be both to mimic whatever synth they are emulating
Yes. Also, it's just not the shape but how the envelope times are scaled across the length of the knob or fader. For instance, a synth that devotes 50% of the knob range to the first 600ms of the attack might seem punchier than a synth that covers that range in the first 25% of the control. Even if the envelope shapes themselves would be otherwise identical when properly matched.
that just means one is more convenient... not as much need for fine adjustments

I wonder how much the control rate that the env's are calculated at matter?

Elektronisch
KVRAF
2440 posts since 3 Feb, 2010

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:03 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:37 pm
Elektronisch:
At the beginning of your audio there is no bass in the click, either. It seems to get added as the decay increases. It sounds almost like a sub-oscillator, a couple of octaves lower than the main sound. I can't think of many examples where I would even want that. I would only have to remove the low frequencies again with an equalizer as they would interfere with bass and bass drum...
Yes it is not a bass, but click already has covered all the frequency spectrum range and you can see that in analyzer that it has bass and sub bass frequencies playing. Well maybe you dont want that and its totaly fine, but there are handful of people who do want that, so please respect that :)
Last edited by Elektronisch on Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Elektronisch
KVRAF
2440 posts since 3 Feb, 2010

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:08 pm

chk071 wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:35 pm
TBH, i don't find the example you posted above very punchy. Or snappy. Which, in my book, are two different things.

Here's a sound snippet i always post to demonstrate very fast, snappy envelopes:

https://soundcloud.com/chk-sound/monark-snap

"Punchy" i'd rather define as something heavy, weighty, and beefy. Fluffy demonstrated that pretty well with his Sylenth1 patch. And Sylenth1 is one of those synths which can get pretty "punchy". It doesn't take fast envelopes, and considerable "snappy"-ness to do a punchy sound though. In my opinion. Your definition may differ.
I think everyone has a different definition of punch :) Monark here does indeed sound snappy, but you put "work" in it, you had to use the filters to bring out that punch (if i hear correctly). And you dont have to do any kind of work to do in elements (or virus, viper - just thinking of synths who does that straight out of the box) :)

And here is the difference, when you dont use just for regular synth sounds, emulation sounds aka simple synth brass, but you use that synth for more modern sounds, much more complex sounds that involve some heavy post processing, then it actually matters, because final result can be different like a day and night from one or another synth.

AnX
KVRAF
3380 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:37 pm

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:58 pm
AnX wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:02 pm
wagtunes wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:54 pm
What is it that makes one envelope snappy and another mushy? I can never understand that if you're doing the exact same settings on two different synths. Some synths, even with fast decay times, sound like hitting mashed potatoes.
depends how they are coded. Could have pre defined times and/or diff curves (log/lin/exp) or they could be both to mimic whatever synth they are emulating
Yes. Also, it's just not the shape but how the envelope times are scaled across the length of the knob or fader. For instance, a synth that devotes 50% of the knob range to the first 600ms of the attack might seem punchier than a synth that covers that range in the first 25% of the control. Even if the envelope shapes themselves would be otherwise identical when properly matched.
yes, that i mean by pre defined times

User avatar
Urs
u-he
22668 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:49 am

I don't know... this totally reminds me of that other thread. And the question, as to how many more friends our products gain if we add clicky things, as opposed to how many we'd loose.

In total, I think more pople complain about Hive's 0 ms envelopes than we ever get people's praises. We often have to tell people that's Hive's 3.00 Attack position equals 0.00 on a standard synth, and that's where the clicks come from.

Not convinced.

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
5776 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:52 am

Urs wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:49 am
I don't know... this totally reminds me of that other thread. And the question, as to how many more friends our products gain if we add clicky things, as opposed to how many we'd loose.

In total, I think more pople complain about Hive's 0 ms envelopes than we ever get people's praises. We often have to tell people that's Hive's 3.00 Attack position equals 0.00 on a standard synth, and that's where the clicks come from.

Not convinced.
Out of curiousity, is Tyrell in the same boat with envelopes? I can get them quite clicky, which I'm ok with even if I always end up just increasing the envelope length a bit to avoid the clicks.

User avatar
Urs
u-he
22668 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:55 pm

I think TyrellN6 envelopes are identical to ACE/Bazille. Could be wrong, but I'm quite sure. For Hive we did new envelopes to match certain shapes also found in certain synthesizers (digital), like we did for Diva (analogue).

chk071
KVRAF
17594 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:02 pm

People complaining about a clicky attack should be :smack: :box: :uhuhuh:

As Urs said, you can always add a bit of attack, or add a de-click option to the synth. I sometimes don't get the mainstream taste.

User avatar
david.beholder
KVRian
1496 posts since 13 Sep, 2007

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:35 pm

Urs wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:55 pm
I think TyrellN6 envelopes are identical to ACE/Bazille. Could be wrong, but I'm quite sure. For Hive we did new envelopes to match certain shapes also found in certain synthesizers (digital), like we did for Diva (analogue).
Urs, btw I remember talks about Release in Moog Envs and Alpha Juno Envs in Diva? Are they probable to happen?
Image Murderous duck!

User avatar
Teksonik
KVRAF
11733 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:45 pm

wagtunes wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:54 pm
What is it that makes one envelope snappy and another mushy?
chk071 wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:59 pm
Good question.
I see Punchy and Snappy are back at it....Beavis and Butthead, Ren and Stimpy, Abbott and Costello all equally comical....... :lol:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Elektronisch
KVRAF
2440 posts since 3 Feb, 2010

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:39 pm

chk071 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:02 pm
People complaining about a clicky attack should be :smack: :box: :uhuhuh:

As Urs said, you can always add a bit of attack, or add a de-click option to the synth. I sometimes don't get the mainstream taste.
The irony of that the popular music (future house ect) actually use more "clicky" sounds like bass ect.

Its just an open tought, I wonder if that majority of envelope complains come more from people who like to toy around with softsynths and collect or actual producers who make living out of making music, having a career :)

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