Synths without PWM

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I asked about discoDSP's Corona and PWM, and George said I can use two saws and set the mode to "Sub" (osc a - osc b = output). Then I just modulated the phase with an LFO, and it seems to work pretty well.

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chk071 wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:55 pm Yeah, with the same technique you can realize PWM in Sylenth1. I always found it doesn't sound quite exactly the same though, but, what do i know.
Which one is Noisemaker and which one is Sylenth1?

https://app.box.com/s/ry14sc0jdfjb3uxix45awhh17c1ug8hr

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I would say the second one is Noisemaker. At least that sounds like a real square before the PWM kicks in.

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Hm, I don't hear a difference, maybe there is something wrong with my ears... :?

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It's very subtle. Even more subtle on my Bluetooth speaker now, it was a bit more apparent when i listened to it on my smart TV.

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I have updated the file meanwhile, maybe that's why it is even subtler now :wink: All I did is slightly adapt the phase setting on Sylenth1. I am sure I could get it 100% identical if I fine-tweaked that knob for 5 more minutes.

Also tried it using the two oscillators of the same layer, but I can't get anywhere near the dedicated PWM sound of Noisemaker, one really has to use one oscillator of each layer it seems.

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What's the point though in working to make it as close as possible? I thought you wanted to know whether it sounds the same, or similar. :) I'd just use Noisemaker, if you want real PWM.

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Well, people keep saying that the S1 workaround doesn't sound like authentic PWM, so when I can make it sound identical to Noisemaker, which has dedicated PWM, that claim is obviously wrong :wink:

After all, who knows how PWM is implemented in synths that do have it, maybe it works exactly like in S1 behind the scenes.

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fluffy_little_something wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:59 am Well, people keep saying that the S1 workaround doesn't sound like authentic PWM, so when I can make it sound identical to Noisemaker, which has dedicated PWM, that claim is obviously wrong :wink:
Well it isn't, if you do this, this, and that to make it sound identical.

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Why? You can set/modulate the phase in Noisemaker as well and I might as well have considered S1's PWM the reference and tried to set Noisemaker's so that it sounds identical. But of course they don't have identical scales, so you have to match them in either direction.
Like with making identical patches on two different synths. The patch might sound identical after a lot of tweaking, but the settings to achieve that may be different. On one you might need a cutoff value of 2/10, on the other of 3,5/10 of ten. Same with envelopes etc.

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fluffy_little_something wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:25 pm Why? You can set/modulate the phase in Noisemaker as well and I might as well have considered S1's PWM the reference and tried to set Noisemaker's so that it sounds identical.
Ok, let's see... you want to compare Sylenth1's workaround to real PWM. And now you argue that you could have as well used Sylenth1's workaround as reference to compare to real PWM? That doesn't make much sense. :) If you want to compare a workaround to the real deal, then, of course, you have to use the real deal as reference. And don't tweak the sound at all, otherwise you are not comparing properly. If Sylenth1's, or any other synth which doesn't do real PWM, workaround doesn't sound exactly the same out of the box, then it is what it is. A workaround, which is subjectively good enough or not. Of course, if you like to go further, and refine the workaround, that's perfectly valid, if you want a similar sound. It's just that the question was whether or not the workaround gives you exactly, or at least a very similar sound. IMO, it IS similar. But not the same.

It's actually a bit sad that we have to hold this discussion, and that Lennard can't implement such a basic feature every very limited freeware synth has.

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That's the point. Who says what "real PWM" is? Who knows how it is implemented in Noisemaker etc.? Maybe exactly like S1's workaround. But as a user of Noisemaker you are just not aware of it because it is hidden under the label that says PW.

PWM is no voodoo, it is a merely technical mechanism, and a rather primitive one at that. First you create a pulse signal with variable pulse width (which is what the workaround in S1 does) and then you modulate that pulse width.

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After just checking in Sylenth1, i'll retreat from my point. It does what you say. Actually, you can even "fine set" the pulse width (just like when you adjust the PW with "real PWM"), when you set the phase of both oscillators to retrigger, and then just adjust the phase of oscillator 2. Works nicely, and does everything "real" PWM does. :) Guess it's the same. My bad.

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Right, and that "fine-tuning" is exactly what I was doing when matching Noisemaker and S1 as even a small change of the PW can change the sound character (the typical nasality) considerably.

Also, PW knobs seem to be set up differently on different synths. On some the sound becomes mute on both extreme settings, on some the sound only becomes mute on one extreme setting.

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Yep, when the oscillators cancel each other out. Unfortunately, on Monark, where you can do that workaround as well, the oscillators are always free-running, so you can't fine tune on a pulse position, and, at some point, the oscillators always cancel each other out. Not that i often use PWM. :)

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