SampleTank 4 on the way

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
HM
KVRist
448 posts since 14 Aug, 2001 from DK

Post Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:34 am

To early to claim it solid, but happy to see that some actually starts using it, at last,..

I am sure some of the sounds are elevated over ST3 as well, it could hardly be much diffrent :-)

Best wishes for real

The issue about multicore-support still missing like in ST3 remained unanswered, aside from one user that joined in a while back and said one instance of ST4 could only use one core

Halion an Kontakt got it for reason

I dont care what IK says, but it would be fine if some more USERS that now got ST4 running could make a test IRL to se how many cores is actually being put in use by ONE instane of ST4, and if the core-distribution is running decent
HM

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Burillo
KVRAF
3373 posts since 15 Nov, 2006 from Hell

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:46 am

IK doesn't do multicore.
From Russia with love

zzz00m
KVRAF
1799 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:23 pm

Burillo wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:46 am
IK doesn't do multicore.
Agreed. I just ran an informal test with the standalone ST4. The entire load seems to remain single threaded, so as you add instruments it seems to add up, until you hit the break point.

On my system, using ST4 with instruments from the new ST4 library, I was only able to get two instruments layered without audio output breaking up (popping, crackling). But by the time I added a third instrument, breakups and dropouts were evident. When adding a fourth, the distortion was extreme. During this time, my overall CPU use was low, in the 30-40% range, as was the memory and disk usage. LatencyMon reported that my system was having no issues with real-time audio.

But as a comparison, I ran the same test with ST4 using only instruments from the ST3 sound library. I was able to add seven instruments without any audio breakups. It was only upon adding an eighth instrument that I got audio breakups.

As far as adding multiple instances of the ST4 plugin to a DAW, the currently reduced memory footprint is a plus, and I was able to add four instances of the plugin to a couple of DAWs without maxing out my RAM. On the plus side, I could use 4 instances of ST4 in each DAW with one ST4 instrument each, without any audio breakup. My assumption here is that a DAW may be able to allocate each instance of ST4 to different CPU thread.

Still unexplained is why the ST4 and ST3 instruments show such a wide variance in performance impact when used in a single instance of ST4!
Windows 10; with instruments from Ableton, AIR, Ample Sound, AAS, Cakewalk, IK Multimedia, iZotope, KV331, NI, PreSonus, Seaweed Audio, SONiVOX, TAL, Tracktion, u-he, Way Out Ware, XLN, others...

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Burillo
KVRAF
3373 posts since 15 Nov, 2006 from Hell

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:03 am

SampleTank 3 instruments are generally lighter (I don't think you'll find an eleven gigabyte piano in SampleTank 3!), and they use different engines.

Speaking of different engines, I hope there are plans to move all SampleTank 3 instruments to the new 4.x engine. It's very frustrating that we have the new flexible modulation, assignable macro knobs (finally! after 18 years!) and other such goodies which are a joy to use, but they are only available to native SampleTank 4 sounds. The factory library of SampleTank 4 is very limited in breadth compared to even SampleTank 3 library, let alone the whole universe of sounds we have accumulated since SampleTank 2, so if I want to use the new features, I have to pick and choose my sounds. I can't use the new engine features with Syntronik (!!!), I can't use them with any SampleTank 3 libraries, I can't use them with any SampleTank 2 libraries. Why?!

I mean, I understand that they are different engines, but from what I can tell, SampleTank 4 engine is a strict superset of SampleTank 3, so why can't SampleTank 3 sounds be converted to SampleTank 4 format?! Not having the new mod matrix and the assignable macros in at least Syntronik, your flagship synth offering, is just mind-bogglingly stupid.
From Russia with love

ShawnMH
KVRist
83 posts since 3 Jun, 2016

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:01 am

I have to think that this is 99% working correctly at the moment, but as others have said, it is still too early to be sure.

I have had no crashes whatsoever since 4.04 update. The memory usage has dropped and is optimized nicely, and the telltale Black LP switch to Red Strat crash is no more.

The odd out of tune and nasty sounds of some ST3 instruments has been cured. The improper associated instrument graphics (of some of those ST3 instruments) that are mismatched have not.

I still have problems with MP2 Full:
"3 English Horns Staccato" being seriously out of tune in MP2 Full. The MP2 CE version is fine however?! Before anyone suggests it, no, Full and CE are not the same, so not interchangeable either. No help at all from my support/ticket on that either. I actually re-downloaded and reinstalled ALL of the MP2 program and content and it still remains.

As for all the single ST4 synth, ST4 multis, and other instruments that were corrupt and crashing/not loading, I had to download ALL of the ST4 program and files to be sure, and reinstall one by one - the folders that contained the corrupt ones.

YES I BOUGHT THE USB version first, so I DID NOT have to do that!! Others had confirmed the same multis/presets as corrupt.

I deliberately asked in the beginning, before throwing my extra coin at the USB about any issues that would arise. Then I watched the forums as problems were popping up left and right (from the download versions). Somebody else also recently inquired here, what good is the USB to us now? What good was it then? We ended up having to download a ton more anyhow?! And I do not even recall being made aware of it, I found out on my own. Hardware - with defective software (some corrupt) loaded, and incomplete software at that.

And I fared better than most in the beginning. In between dodging crashes and avoiding corrupt instruments and patches, I could actually play around with some of ST4. Many could not. I spent an exorbitant amount of time checking/comparing/replacing files, and doing anything else I could to get this program set straight and running stable. This should not happen again, nor should IK underestimate the amount of energy spent, and grief/anger/frustration many of us have endured to get to here. This should NOT go un-noticed!

I sure hope IK throws us back some (a lot of) JamPoints, or some kind of sympathy card for all we have endured until this point. I won't hold my breath, nor will I be amazed if nothing changes. I still hope it will, because IK software can hang with the best of them when it works right, that's why I am still here.

Final point: In my own opinion, SampleTank 4 (with 4.04) has made it to the point of stability where it can be used without (much) worry. Thank you for that, finally, IK...

User avatar
Burillo
KVRAF
3373 posts since 15 Nov, 2006 from Hell

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:04 am

JamPoints are all but useless for us EU users because IK shop always adds VAT on top of the already quite high price. so no, please don't add JamPoints.
From Russia with love

ShawnMH
KVRist
83 posts since 3 Jun, 2016

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:08 am

Oh, and huge THANK YOUs go to Burillo and zzzOOm!!!! You two have seriously been very helpful to all of us in this thread.

I hope IK Multimedia gives you recognition for that, free software/plugins/hardware/JamPoints…

... and they definitely need you guys as public beta testers

ShawnMH
KVRist
83 posts since 3 Jun, 2016

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:10 am

Burillo wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:04 am
JamPoints are all but useless for us EU users because IK shop always adds VAT on top of the already quite high price. so no, please don't add JamPoints.
okay then, skip the JamPoints for Burillo :D

zzz00m
KVRAF
1799 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:46 pm

Burillo wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:03 am

I mean, I understand that they are different engines, but from what I can tell, SampleTank 4 engine is a strict superset of SampleTank 3, so why can't SampleTank 3 sounds be converted to SampleTank 4 format?!
I do wonder WHY they did it that way? And I suspect there is also a greater performance hit with the ST4 engine in regards to CPU and audio usage. I can run more concurrent parts in a single instance of ST4 using instruments from the ST3 library, than I can using the ST4 instrument library, before getting audio breakups.

I don't think this performance issue has to do strictly with sample size, as I experience the audio glitches while I still have plenty of RAM available to use. And I have tried all of the disk streaming options available, with no apparent affect on performance.

Here is a clip from the manual regarding the decision to use both engines in ST4, and not convert the instruments:

"There are different Edit Panels for SampleTank 4 Instruments and legacy SampleTank 3 Instruments. This is because of the difference between the SampleTank 4 and SampleTank 3 engines. The SampleTank 3 engine compatibility is provided to ensure that legacy content plays in SampleTank 4 exactly the way it played in SampleTank 3 without any conversion. In fact, SampleTank 3 Instruments cannot be converted to SampleTank 4 Instruments because of the difference in their structures".

So it sounds like they completely broke backwards compatibility with the new instrument structure, and the dual engine is the workaround.
Windows 10; with instruments from Ableton, AIR, Ample Sound, AAS, Cakewalk, IK Multimedia, iZotope, KV331, NI, PreSonus, Seaweed Audio, SONiVOX, TAL, Tracktion, u-he, Way Out Ware, XLN, others...

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Burillo
KVRAF
3373 posts since 15 Nov, 2006 from Hell

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:58 pm

i don't buy that. just because the instruments have different structures doesn't mean they can't be converted into one another. they have done that for ST2 -> ST3 sounds, and i don't see anything in ST4 that would've prevented a backwards-compatible implementation of ST3 sounds. i mean, the FX are the same, the number of oscillators in ST3 (2) is less than in ST4 (6), the engines (PSTS, STRETCH, Resample, round-robins etc.) are all the same, the filters/envs are all the same, and ST3 doesn't have a different mod matrix, so on conversion the mod matrix can simply be empty, and the macros kept the same. what can ST3 do that ST4 can't, or does it so differently as to make ST3 sounds fundamentally incompatible with ST4?
From Russia with love

Saukar30
KVRian
1152 posts since 2 Mar, 2005

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:03 am

Burillo wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:58 pm
i don't buy that. just because the instruments have different structures doesn't mean they can't be converted into one another. they have done that for ST2 -> ST3 sounds, and i don't see anything in ST4 that would've prevented a backwards-compatible implementation of ST3 sounds. i mean, the FX are the same, the number of oscillators in ST3 (2) is less than in ST4 (6), the engines (PSTS, STRETCH, Resample, round-robins etc.) are all the same, the filters/envs are all the same, and ST3 doesn't have a different mod matrix, so on conversion the mod matrix can simply be empty, and the macros kept the same. what can ST3 do that ST4 can't, or does it so differently as to make ST3 sounds fundamentally incompatible with ST4?
Im guessing its because the enevlopes & lfos are hardwired to pitch, enevlope & pan in ST3 and I believe in ST4 patches the enevlopes can be routed differently in the mod matrix. And there are more stretching algorithms that are available in ST3 (which doesnt make sense) Atleast those are the only noticeable differences I've seen.

I do agree, they could realistically use the same engine, which is my main gripe about ST4 and why Im trying to get rid of it. I like all of my old ST2 & ST3 sounds and just wanted that mod matrix power to enhance their playability. Without that, I have no use for ST4.. Im fine with ST3... especially since I cant use the mod.matrix for Syntronik.

User avatar
Burillo
KVRAF
3373 posts since 15 Nov, 2006 from Hell

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:40 am

i don't see how hardwired LFO's prevent the conversion process, seeing how you could just set the option in mod-matrix to what was previously hardwired.

which stretching algos are missing from ST4? AFAIK it does have STRETCH (used for harmonic sounds like vocals), Resample (used for Syntronik and similar), and PSTS (used for loops). what else is there? It supports round-robin - okay, so does ST3. it supports zones - okay, so did ST2. it supports ad-hoc scripting - okay, but it's not like you can't not use it for ST3 sounds.

now, admittedly i haven't studied this in great detail, but as far as i am able to tell, the ST4 engine is a strict superset of ST3 engine.
From Russia with love

DarkStar
KVRAF
8828 posts since 2 Sep, 2003 from Surrey, UK

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:17 am

^^^
That may well be, in functional terms, but only IK Multimedia knows what goes on under the hood. I think I read the ST3 was a complete rewrite of ST2 and, separately, that ST4 was a rewrite of ST3.

Having said that I would have thought that there could be a ST3 to ST4 instrument conversion program, applying sensible default values as needed, so that ST only needs one engine. But, those converted instruments could need a lot of reworking by the sounds designers to use all of the ST4 new features.
DarkStar
Interesting, if true ...

DrumAddict
KVRist
448 posts since 3 Jun, 2012

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:36 am

does anyone has tried to play with the mouse with the keyboard on the standalone ? looks like its a nasty bug there c1 plays c3 , c2 plays c4 , c3 plays c5 , and so on .

update: strange its gone now after restart the standalone .

bill45
KVRAF
2357 posts since 15 Jun, 2006

Re: SampleTank 4 on the way

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:49 am

The Red strat and the Black LP are very cpu hungry for me.
I have to set the system to 1024 buffers to get cubase performance meter
to 50%. Xeon 5670.Focus rite scarlett usb.

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