Would insert points in plugins be possible?

[cTnP]

Hello,

i extra registered to ask the following question:

would i technically be possible (latency issues etc) to have insert points in instrument or fx plugins?

It would be so great being able to insert other plugins before the filter or at other points or maybe even
use another plugin as oscillator in a synth (ok, that would already be quite sophisticated i guess).

If it is not possible inside the plugins itself, maybe an virtual insert box could be created
(but then we also would need a standard in/out for all plugins to be compatible with such a box) ?


thank you for your answers

[elassi]

Bluecat Audio has some plugins that allow integration of external VST(i). Patchwork or their Delay (forgot the name) for example.

[cTnP]

i just checked, you are right, the "late replies delay" has this, it is called "feedback loop" there. Great to know, thank you!
do you also maybe know, WHERE the insert points are in this delay? i checked the manual, but i think it does not say where they are.


Besides that, it would be fantastic, if many plugins offer those loop points, best would be if the user could decide, WHERE those inserts are.

[whyterabbyt]

would i technically be possible (latency issues etc) to have insert points in instrument or fx plugins?

technically yes. however it basically means making the plugin into a plugin host. and the complexity of making a plugin host is very very significant in comparison to making a plugin.

[cTnP]

But when i route the signal from plugin to the next now,
from synth into distortion into delay (for example), then they also do not have to be "host"
(just assuming, i'm technically ).

Shouldn't it be possible then, to route the singal to different points, once they are available?

[OneOfManyPauls]

do you also maybe know, WHERE the insert points are in this delay? i checked the manual, but i think it does not say where they are.

take a look at that main image - you can insert third party plugins everywhere you see a box with a "+" in it, so you can have them before the delay section, in the individual delay taps, in the feedback loops and/or after the delay.

https://www.bluecataudio.com//show_scre ... e=main.png

[SoundPorn]

In Reaper you can create some very complex routings both forwards and backwards because each track is a 64 channel mixer and it got a plugin pin connector matrix.

Also Bitwig I hear is impressive with being able to do things like that.

[whyterabbyt]

But when i route the signal from plugin to the next now,
from synth into distortion into delay (for example), then they also do not have to be "host"
(just assuming, i'm technically ).

Shouldn't it be possible then, to route the singal to different points, once they are available?

No, what I told you is how it is.

What's happening is that the plugin host sends audio to the first plugin, which processes it and sends it back to the host, which then sends it to the second plugin and so on and so on. That's it.

Plugins have to be inside a host, and if they are not a host themselves they can only send data to and from that host. The data they get/send is their own audio, midi and automation data, and almost nothing else. As plugins, they dont even know what other plugins are on the same track and they certainly cant send anything to them.

[elassi]

Check this, too, cTnP:



https://ddmf.eu/metaplugin-chainer-vst- ... x-wrapper/

Similar plugins exist, e.g. Image Line's patcher.

Btw, the picture shows the disadvantages by design that all those solutions face: There's almost no interaction of the 'modules' like you find them in standard synths or modular ones. In practice: The LFO from Plugin #1 can't modulate anything in Plugin #2, or the ENV of Plugin #2 only works within Plugin #2...

[whyterabbyt]

Btw, the picture shows the disadvantages by design that all those solutions face: There's almost no interaction of the 'modules' like you find them in standard synths or modular ones. In practice: The LFO from Plugin #1 can't modulate anything in Plugin #2, or the ENV of Plugin #2 only works within Plugin #2...

I think talking about modular hosts may muddy the issue, because the OP was specifically talking about routing audio to within the signal flow of a self-contained plugin, rather than between plugins.

Being pedantic about it, though, I'll point out, that the one category of the data on the 'inside' of a plugin that can be accessed is parameters, so it is actually possible that an LFO of plugin #1 can be set to modulate something in plugin #2. Bidule is one of the very few that can do this, though.

[cTnP]

@ elassi: if i get this right, the such patchers only patch the normal in/outs of the plugins, right? so they do not create insert points like blue cat's "late replies" has them, correct?

@OneOfManyPauls: thank you, now i see .... really impressive !

@ whyterabbyt: so blue cat did just that with "late replies" - they made it a host and that's the way it would have to be done if you want such inserts in any synth/fx?

[whyterabbyt]

@ whyterabbyt: so blue cat did just that with "late replies" - they made it a host and that's the way it would have to be done if you want such inserts in any synth/fx?

Yup, exactly.

[cTnP]

thank you and all the other guys ***

i hope more plugins will offer this great insert "mod" - it so useful and creative.

[elassi]

@ elassi: if i get this right, the such patchers only patch the normal in/outs of the plugins, right? so they do not create insert points like blue cat's "late replies" has them, correct?

Right, however you could mimic Late replies' functionality, but it'd be a) a mess and b) most likely come with high CPU cost (e.g. you need a delay for every tap you want to use).

[OneOfManyPauls]

Not the same thing, but I do quite often use oscillators from one plugin with filters in another plugin via normal DAW routing eg in Ableton Live:

track 1: midi track - synth plugin with filter fully open and ideally oscillators just free running rather than needing a key press to play (eg Softube Modular) - audio out set to "sends only"

filter plugin (eg fabfilter volcano2 - envelope routed to cutoff frequency and midi trigger enabled)

track 2: midi track - midi from keyboard - midi routed to filter plugin on track 1

and I'll modulate parameters via something like midishaper or 3244 modulation processor

only works paraphonically though