Will NKS go the distance?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
Kebmaster
KVRist
112 posts since 29 Dec, 2005 from Sheffield

Post Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:41 am

It's a good idea, especially if you have a komplete controller, but without one and using komplete start and generic controller I find it no better than using Novation automap and my old Novation Nocturn, infact I prefer automap because I do not have to load the komplete kontrol plugin first, it just wraps plugins and loads them directly. However the advantage with komplete kontrol is that it is all premapped by the plug-in developers themselves, not all half randomly like with automap. We will just have to see what the future brings..
Hackintosh, Ableton, Various plugins inc Repro, Zebra, Tal bassline 101, Xpand, Serum. Mackie onyx audio interface, Presonus Eris e5, Samson Sr850/Yamaha RH5ma headphones, Novation nocturn, Korg nano control 2, Maudio keystation 49, AKAI APC25.

Topcheese
KVRist
231 posts since 12 Nov, 2017

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:18 am

Kebmaster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:41 am
It's a good idea, especially if you have a komplete controller, but without one and using komplete start and generic controller I find it no better than using Novation automap and my old Novation Nocturn, infact I prefer automap because I do not have to load the komplete kontrol plugin first, it just wraps plugins and loads them directly. However the advantage with komplete kontrol is that it is all premapped by the plug-in developers themselves, not all half randomly like with automap. We will just have to see what the future brings..
And this is where I think NI might really be dropping the ball. It's a standard waiting to happen, and if they still making money off it that's a good thing. It just seems like you see things like "Ableton Link" and "MPE" gaining more traction as standards more than you do NKS.

I quote from the MS article about their approach to it.
"At Microsoft, we take it as a given that developers do not want a binary choice between Windows vs. Linux, or .NET vs Java -- they want cloud platforms to support all technologies. They want to deploy technologies at the edge -- on any device -- that meet customer needs. We also learned that collaborative development through the open source process can accelerate innovation."

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KVRist
313 posts since 3 Oct, 2009

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:44 am

IDK but as an owner of an Maschine mk3, I am seriously considering selling it as the NKS support (or lack thereof) is seriously a burden on my OCD.

It's not an issue not having a standard mapping layout when I use another DAW but it REALLY bothers me when I use one with integrated hardware and some plugins are fully integrated where others aren't.

And the reality is I will never see the day when all the plugins I use are supported because I use some abandoned 32bit plugs

Scoox
KVRist
138 posts since 8 May, 2008

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 1:34 am

I don't use NKS but IMO one nice thing about it is that you can use it as a universal preset manager, allowing you to load patches in any DAW. If you save a patch in Studio One using its own .preset format, you can't open it in, say, Bitwig. This could be useful for people who work on different DAWs.

The disadvantage is of course that you add an extra layer of complexity and it's not as tightly integrated with the host.

If NKS could bit-bridge, it might attract more users.

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crimsonwarlock
KVRAF
2072 posts since 18 Apr, 2001 from The Netherlands

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 2:01 am

Image

Setting this up is a bitch though :D
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, using Reaper and a fine selection of freeware plugins.

Ragnarök VST-synthesizer co-creator with Full Bucket

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DJ Warmonger
KVRAF
3086 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 2:07 am

^That's impressive. However, the question arises the same as in VIP:

Will everybody be able to pick and use this config easily? Will the config be possible to extend and maintain over time?
http://djwarmonger.wordpress.com/
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)

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crimsonwarlock
KVRAF
2072 posts since 18 Apr, 2001 from The Netherlands

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 2:29 am

DJ Warmonger wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 2:07 am
Will everybody be able to pick and use this config easily? Will the config be possible to extend and maintain over time?
From my perspective it is a question of the right tool for the job. Some people need something you can plugin and work with to a certain degree, others (like me) need something that is able to integrate to a deeper level of the workflow. For me personally there currently is nothing else on the market that gives me the functionality that my MK2 keyboard gives me. It pretty much integrates complete into reaper (although because of the community, not NI) and it is the closest thing to working with hardware synthesizers IF you are prepared to do the work to integrate specific instruments like I'm doing. This is certainly not for everyone, I understand that, but I'm certainly not the only one going this way with it. And because of that, there is already quite a lot of support from the side of the community which makes it only better and in due time indeed easy to use and maintain for everybody.

Another thing; the way Komplete Kontrol handles the instrument and effects chain (by some here mentioned as a shortcoming) means I can include specific effects with specific presets for a certain instrument while this is inside a very capable preset manager. What else can currently do that :hihi:
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, using Reaper and a fine selection of freeware plugins.

Ragnarök VST-synthesizer co-creator with Full Bucket

AnX
KVRAF
4603 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 2:52 am

your host? save as template?

thats what i do

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ThomasHelzle
KVRAF
5334 posts since 9 Dec, 2008 from Berlin

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 2:52 am

The reason why I don't even consider using this kind of tool is that it's the classical "single point of failure" situation. If anything goes wrong with KK, all the projects using it are destroyed, independent of DAW used etc. That may happen through a faulty update, an OS update that somehow makes KK not work or that NI at one point kills it like it did with the Kore.
That is the same with other similar tools that put themselves between your DAW and the plugins you use.

And yes, every other plugin can also fail individually, but KK and it's brethren make it even more likely and the destruction will be much broader.

Then you have the added complexity and overhead, that KK isn't available for Linux etc.

And for me personally, I find the NI Hardware unconvincing and the reliance on (even more) software to make it work really bad. And finally the concept of KK is the absolute last thing I would want to use, it's just not how I work.

I'm actually very surprised that any third parties even consider supporting it. Shows only that NI is getting too fat for it's own good. The last couple of releases were so boring, they really must be getting desperate.

Cheers,

Tom
"Out beyond the ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there." - Rumi
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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
2552 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 5:01 am

A good DAW should make it useless anyway. I get a similar functionality within Bitwigs browser for example...
I would like to see a pure keyboard/padless controller like the KKs though, one or two touch screens surrounded by encoders... Well, an iPad might be sufficient eventually...

rmacattack
KVRer
8 posts since 20 May, 2019

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 5:10 am

rlared wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:03 pm
This is purely speculative. I'm sure we will get someone saying "who cares, go make music" before Page 2. But just interested to hear opinions.

I suspect NKS (Native Kontrol Standard) will fade into oblivion for 3rd parties in the next 5 years. I wouldn't be shocked if even NI abandons it as well. This is based on:

3rd Party Pain in the Ass Factor: DAW vendors have to maintain the compatibility over time, plugin vendors have to as well. Has adoption plateaued?

Unclear Strategy: What is their message? Work only with your keyboard? Keyboard and DAW? Machine? Use their instruments or 3rd party ones? Komplete Kontrol is an effects host also?

Competition: Other products from Arturia, AKAI, etc are fragmenting the segment.

I personally found it a "nice to have" but I prefer other non-NKS synths. At this point I no longer go for the "totally integrated" hardware solutions because I've never found one that works for me.
No it won't because you and others will continue to put money into NI's pockets.

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crimsonwarlock
KVRAF
2072 posts since 18 Apr, 2001 from The Netherlands

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 5:16 am

AnX wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 2:52 am
your host? save as template?
Managing several hundreds of templates across several plugins will become tedious pretty fast for me. It also won't give me the category based search system across synthesizers that I now have.
ThomasHelzle wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 2:52 am
The reason why I don't even consider using this kind of tool is that it's the classical "single point of failure" situation. If anything goes wrong with KK, all the projects using it are destroyed, independent of DAW used etc.
Why? It's pretty simple to load the same plugins without Komplete after you are done composing and sound diving. It's what I do. My machine is powerful enough but why keep the overhead of Komplete Kontrol for tracks that are already composed and such.
ThomasHelzle wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 2:52 am
That may happen through a faulty update, an OS update that somehow makes KK not work or that NI at one point kills it like it did with the Kore.
That is the same with other similar tools that put themselves between your DAW and the plugins you use.
And yet almost every other controller manufacturer is going that way. Nektar used to boast how they did not use a software layer/plugin for the Panorama controllers and now they have gone that way as well.
ThomasHelzle wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 2:52 am
And for me personally, I find the NI Hardware unconvincing and the reliance on (even more) software to make it work really bad.
The build quality is stunning in comparison to what the competition brings on, and that Fatar keybed is seen as best in class and certainly one of the best keybeds I ever played on (and I've touched a bunch in my lifetime :D )
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, using Reaper and a fine selection of freeware plugins.

Ragnarök VST-synthesizer co-creator with Full Bucket

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
6609 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 6:45 am

I’ve complained lots about nks because it really is an idiotic design for control. But funny enough I’m looking at getting the 88 mk2 because I want a decent full sized piano like keyboard and the light guide will be very handy for many kontakt ensembles. I’m going to use it mostly as a preset browsing/playing keyboard, especially pianos, keys and other samples instruments which don’t require lots of tweaking, just some important parameters where I don’t have to go to the mouse. I’ve already bought the Omnisphere, keyscape and trilian nks libraries from freelance sounds so all those as well as my komplete and Soniccouture stuff will be available.

I would never use it as a synth sound design platform however. I stay with novation automap for that. The poor choices in nks are staggering for parameter control, especially from the company that made kore. Kite had 8 buttons for every 8 knob page. Nks makes you assign buttons to knobs. So not only do have to turn a knob instead of pressing a button, but you also lose some of those precious 8 knobs on a page because you need access to a button/toggle. Just having 8 knobs (which sometimes need to control buttons) is bad enough but then they make it difficult to actually get to the zillion pages quickly. With more you could scroll directly to many of the pages. In nks you must hit next or previous page to move one page at a time. Oh suddenly they like buttons so much you have to hit it 15 times to go to the page you want. NI you have scroll wheels how about scrolling to a page? Or better yet have direct access by a button press? You need to see page 15 on a screen and hit a button to go to it. How is this not common sense?
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.

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crimsonwarlock
KVRAF
2072 posts since 18 Apr, 2001 from The Netherlands

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 7:38 am

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:45 am
...
Agreed with most of that, but that's the great thing with software driven hardware; new updates can bring new functionality.

I ordered a Nektar P1 first, to find the last update of their plugin library maps dated back to 2016 and you can't add maps yourself that have more then 2 pages. Yes, it has buttons but.... TWO friggin pages :dog: In the meantime they have new controllers with a wrapper solution (like Kontrol) where you actually can map more pages, name them, etc. but those new controllers are a joke in the build department. They are cheap, I give them that.

I looked at a lot of options and Kontrol does the same or more as others. Their preset management is indeed somewhat closed (but y picture showed there are workarounds for that), but other controllers simply don't have that setup at all. They are just midi controllers that you can map.

In reaper I have one layer that controls the DAW, another layer that controls my synths with NKS and with the midi button and additional mapping a third layer of custom control besides the other two (that I use for custom actions in reaper) that are all available at the same time. That is a lot of functionality crammed into a controller. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see any other option that would give me that AND a great quality keyboard :D
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, using Reaper and a fine selection of freeware plugins.

Ragnarök VST-synthesizer co-creator with Full Bucket

Lolostudio
KVRer
14 posts since 16 Jun, 2006 from Zaventem, Belgium

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 8:03 am

I seriously am a fan of the NKS thing and use,it,all the time in my maschine software. We all agree on the fact that KK is on the other hand an unfinished thing. No multitimbral, no fx automation are the biggest issues I’m having. Poor nks support from the likes of spitfire audio and a few more is another issue.

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