Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
recursive one
KVRAF
4043 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:14 am

Spire also has static envelope graphs, i remember they promised to fix it but never did.

I agree that listening to the envelopes is more important than looking at them, but these static graphs are just a waste of the screen space.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

chk071
KVRAF
21225 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:18 am

Whenever the effect of envelopes is described in manuals, there is a figure showing a gaphical display, so, i assume they wanted to do the same here. Or... they always wanted to animate it, but didn't manage to do so on time, because they were already late with the time plan. Whatever the reason is, they promised to "fix" it, and that's that for me. Of course, i could lament about it for days now, but, i rather spend my time more effectively. With video games or something. :D

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EnGee
KVRAF
5390 posts since 7 Oct, 2005 from NZ

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:32 am

What a couple now! Always in harmony :hihi:

Ok! I lack the talents you guys have so that I need a visualisation to help me understand the nature of the sound. What can you do?! Some guys are created slow!
Let's donate to help the kids and save our planet.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Bitwig 3, Reaper 5 and some u-he synths (Ubuntu 18.04), Maschine 2.8/NI/Korg/other synths and instruments (Windows 10)

chk071
KVRAF
21225 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:42 am

I'm sure you can set up a envelope without visual feedback. ;) Actually, i have loads of soft synths which don't have a visual feedback on the envelopes.

Again though, it's coming. No need to pluck your hair over it.

Functional
KVRian
726 posts since 26 Oct, 2011

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:49 am

chk071 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:18 am
Whenever the effect of envelopes is described in manuals, there is a figure showing a gaphical display, so, i assume they wanted to do the same here. Or... they always wanted to animate it, but didn't manage to do so on time, because they were already late with the time plan.
I'd say 99% chance that it's the latter. NI devs are no baboons and they do understand perfectly well that it's not a good outlook generally speaking when their first synth had the feature and this one doesn't. We know for a fact that the release was rushed because they didn't want to push it back twice.

chk071
KVRAF
21225 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:55 am

Functional wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:49 am
NI devs are no baboons
Well, exactly. Confusing to see that people who think they know so much better imply that they are.

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EnGee
KVRAF
5390 posts since 7 Oct, 2005 from NZ

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:02 am

chk071 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:42 am
I'm sure you can set up a envelope without visual feedback. ;) Actually, i have loads of soft synths which don't have a visual feedback on the envelopes.

Again though, it's coming. No need to pluck your hair over it.
Do you think I'm talking about a simple AMP envelope?!
I'm talking in general when there are three or more envelopes engaged in a complex sound and you want to understand the flow of the sound, then you need that visualisation to make it faster to understand. Especially if the modulators are modulating other modulators which modulating others!!

Why do I need to pluck my hair?! :nutter: I just use another synth! I leave the glory to be yours from using Massive X :hihi:
Let's donate to help the kids and save our planet.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Bitwig 3, Reaper 5 and some u-he synths (Ubuntu 18.04), Maschine 2.8/NI/Korg/other synths and instruments (Windows 10)

recursive one
KVRAF
4043 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:14 am

EnGee wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:32 am
What a couple now! Always in harmony :hihi:

Ok! I lack the talents you guys have so that I need a visualisation to help me understand the nature of the sound. What can you do?! Some guys are created slow!
If anything, i mean these graphs are useless when they are static, if they changed visually to reflect the envelope shape it would be helpful. I think this is what most people are complaining about.

At that, quite a few synths don't have any visual representation of the envelopes whatsoever, just knobs or sliders, and people were programming them since forever.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

chk071
KVRAF
21225 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:36 am

EnGee wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:02 am
chk071 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:42 am
I'm sure you can set up a envelope without visual feedback. ;) Actually, i have loads of soft synths which don't have a visual feedback on the envelopes.

Again though, it's coming. No need to pluck your hair over it.
Do you think I'm talking about a simple AMP envelope?!
I'm talking in general when there are three or more envelopes engaged in a complex sound and you want to understand the flow of the sound, then you need that visualisation to make it faster to understand. Especially if the modulators are modulating other modulators which modulating others!!

Why do I need to pluck my hair?! :nutter: I just use another synth! I leave the glory to be yours from using Massive X :hihi:
OK!!!!

;)

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Urs
u-he
23801 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:28 am

Static envelope visuals are good enough if they actually depict all the parameters and stages. But in MassiveX, several of the esoteric parameters are not depicted at all, such as Peak, 2nd Hold and Slope parameters. That's an omission which deserves a fair amount of criticism.

Gregorius
KVRist
102 posts since 30 Jun, 2015

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:36 am

MassiveX all the way, no question. Been demoing both and MX instantly made me play with it for hours to discover new stuff.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
15964 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:05 am

pixel85 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:30 am
I don't get it. Why people need to visualise envelope? Is listening not enough anymore? It's a serious question.
I'm not arguing that visual display of the envelope is a must. However, listening isn't enough anymore. Because today the tools are so complex and multi-layered. The same audio result can be obtained through multiple means.

If I have a classic analog synth... say a Prophet 5. It's easy to understand how a sound is created by listening to the result. Now take one of the various complex software synths. I can listen to the audio result and just not know how it is created. Is it samples? wavetables? VA? FM? or some combination. Is the movement in the sound from an envelope? or some oscFX? or part of the sample? and so on.

Also, specific to MX... Look at the ADSR in Hive. The sliders are basically a graphical representation. A glance shows the basic Env shape. Then look at the MX Env. It is fairly complex and so not easy and immediate to understand the shape of the Env. And unlike a classic analog synth with maybe 2 envelopes, you can have lots of them in MX. All of which greatly increases the complexity... plus you can modulate one envelope by another.

So yes... some helpful visual feedback is more important today because the synths are much more complex.

anoise
KVRist
209 posts since 1 Jul, 2009

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:21 am

recursive one wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:14 am
Spire also has static envelope graphs, i remember they promised to fix it but never did.
I don't know if you and others are aware, but in Spire, those envelope graphs are actually switches, where you set the curve of the envelope stages by clicking on them. They are not useless images, they show the envelope curve type.

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pixel85
KVRian
572 posts since 11 Apr, 2008

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:39 am

enCiphered wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:56 am
EnGee wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:41 am
pixel85 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:30 am
I don't get it. Why people need to visualise envelope? Is listening not enough anymore? It's a serious question.
So why making an interface in the first place?! Just put sliders (one beside/under the other) and get done with it (something like the edit mode in Cubase)! You don't need anymore than that because listening is more than enough for you!
+1
Some people don't even make the effort to think before posting.
Oh yes, I'm really stupid that I believe that music can be made with ears and not with eyes :D
I don't even feel sorry for you if you must have visual help to make music
don't use plugin/s in this topic! It has aliasing at -196dB and 60fps

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pixel85
KVRian
572 posts since 11 Apr, 2008

Re: Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

Post Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:44 am

pdxindy wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:05 am
pixel85 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:30 am
I don't get it. Why people need to visualise envelope? Is listening not enough anymore? It's a serious question.
I'm not arguing that visual display of the envelope is a must. However, listening isn't enough anymore. Because today the tools are so complex and multi-layered. The same audio result can be obtained through multiple means.

If I have a classic analog synth... say a Prophet 5. It's easy to understand how a sound is created by listening to the result. Now take one of the various complex software synths. I can listen to the audio result and just not know how it is created. Is it samples? wavetables? VA? FM? or some combination. Is the movement in the sound from an envelope? or some oscFX? or part of the sample? and so on.

Also, specific to MX... Look at the ADSR in Hive. The sliders are basically a graphical representation. A glance shows the basic Env shape. Then look at the MX Env. It is fairly complex and so not easy and immediate to understand the shape of the Env. And unlike a classic analog synth with maybe 2 envelopes, you can have lots of them in MX. All of which greatly increases the complexity... plus you can modulate one envelope by another.

So yes... some helpful visual feedback is more important today because the synths are much more complex.
Yeah but ADSR is simple in MX and Im getting impression that for some people commenting here, having visual feedback for a basic ADSR like in MX is a must to be able to make music.
I pointed before that it's nice to have it but common, it will not stop anyone from making music. Or maybe I'm old and now without visuals people can't make music anymore?
don't use plugin/s in this topic! It has aliasing at -196dB and 60fps

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