Hybrid Synth Sampler "Workstations" - Details, Experiences, Discussion

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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fmr
KVRAF
9157 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:23 am

anomandaris1 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:58 am
fmr wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:08 am


Because, to me, stricto sensu, only HALion, Falcon and Kontakt qualify as "synth sampler workstations". Because anything that doesn't allow you to create your own instrument assembling multiple samples per keyboard and velocity zones (e.g. the so many times quoted here Omnisphere), immediately disqualifies it as a "sampler". And only the mentioned three allow you to do that, AFAIK.
Modular environments can also do this- Reaktor, Polygrid (in Bitwig), Mux, whatever you get in Fl all plugins bundle (Harmor for resynthesis/Directwave connected in Patcher along with other synths), Live suite (racks/Max), S1 sampler with the layered environment etc.
Do what? create your own instrument assembling multiple samples per keyboard and velocity zones? Maybe Live Sampler can do it, as can Reason NN-XT (but those are just samplers - or sample players - not sampler synthesizers, as they don't have any other kind of synthesis technique like granular, wavetable, resynthesis, etc.).

Again, it's important to define precisely what we are talking about. Because A LOT OF VIRTUAL INSTRUMENTS CAN USE SAMPLES THESE DAYS, but that doesn't qualify them as samplers, in the way the word "sampler" is being used commonly nowadays.

Let's pick Arturia, for example. Arturia now would have FOUR sample synthesizers: CMI V, Mellotron V, Pigments and Synclavier V.

Using samples doesn't mean an instrument is a sampler, unless we are talking of the broad technical sense of the word, which would mean that hundreds (literally more than one hundred) instruments would qualify.

Reaktor alone has dozens of ensembles (both commercial and free) that would qualify as "samplers". Kontakt based "instruments" idem.
Fernando (FMR)

GRUMP
KVRist
160 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Hybrid Synth Sampler "Workstations" - Details, Experiences, Discussion

Post Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:14 pm

Faiky wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:46 am
MSoundfactory has a sampler with keyzones, velocity layer, round robin, meaningful automation processes, batch processes (import and trim, copy pitched voices and keep formants...), loading sfz..., too. Unfortunately it isn't listed on the website or in the documentation.
Have they implemented it already? When I lastly read about it some Months ago it was still a ToDo...
What do you mean with Round Robin? And how about Slicing and Mapping Functions?

I must admit that I didn´t really consider it yet because I frequently feel like beating those Guys up when I look into a Manual. Aargh! :evil:
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

GRUMP
KVRist
160 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Hybrid Synth Sampler "Workstations" - Details, Experiences, Discussion

Post Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:24 pm

fmr wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:23 am

Do what? create your own instrument assembling multiple samples per keyboard and velocity zones? Maybe Live Sampler can do it, as can Reason NN-XT (but those are just samplers - or sample players - not sampler synthesizers, as they don't have any other kind of synthesis technique like granular, wavetable, resynthesis, etc.).

Again, it's important to define precisely what we are talking about. Because A LOT OF VIRTUAL INSTRUMENTS CAN USE SAMPLES THESE DAYS, but that doesn't qualify them as samplers, in the way the word "sampler" is being used commonly nowadays.
So the D50 or the Wavestation were no Synthesizers? I definitely share your Thoughts in some way, but ... I mean even Serrato is frequently talking about their new "Sampler" and this Trashcan doesn´t even have real Amp-ENVs - and a Sampler with ENVs, Filters, LFOs and so on is nothing else but a Synth with Sample-Waveforms. Right?

But anyway. Omnisphere for Example is a Workstation or at least sells like on. Didn´t have much Time to read about it yet and the Demo is just for three Days - but it seems like a very interesting Alternative, even if you can just load single Samples (until now). As much as I know you can use the Librarys Multisample-Pool and that´s clearly what most People do with a Sampler.
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

GRUMP
KVRist
160 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Hybrid Synth Sampler "Workstations" - Details, Experiences, Discussion

Post Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:31 pm

Lind0n wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:01 am
Well I've worked with several of those you mention at the start, and given a choice of only one then I'd select UVI Falcon every time for its breadth and depth of functionality - and the flexible tree structure for audio routing. These days I mostly write VST/AU plug-ins for a living - so if there's something I want badly then I can code it myself - but off-hand I cant recall anything that I couldn't have figured out a way to do it in Falcon...
Falcon seems interesting to me, too - can you maybe tell us a little bit about Restrictions and Disadvantages? I remember that there were some in V1. I decided for Halion at that time.
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
9157 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Hybrid Synth Sampler "Workstations" - Details, Experiences, Discussion

Post Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:02 pm

GRUMP wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:24 pm
So the D50 or the Wavestation were no Synthesizers?

Sure they were. But they were NOT samplers, nor did they ever been marketed as such.
GRUMP wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:24 pm
I definitely share your Thoughts in some way, but ... I mean even Serrato is frequently talking about their new "Sampler" and this Trashcan doesn´t even have real Amp-ENVs - and a Sampler with ENVs, Filters, LFOs and so on is nothing else but a Synth with Sample-Waveforms. Right?

Right. Basically any sampler after Emulator-II was a sample based subtractive synth. Some even were presented as sampling synthesizers (it was the case of the Casio FZ series or the Korg DSS/DSM series).

And the Synclavier was born as an FM synth based workstation that later became also a sampler.

Nothing of that changes a bit about what a sampler was/is for us, musicians :shrug:
GRUMP wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:24 pm
But anyway. Omnisphere for Example is a Workstation or at least sells like on. Didn´t have much Time to read about it yet and the Demo is just for three Days - but it seems like a very interesting Alternative, even if you can just load single Samples (until now). As much as I know you can use the Librarys Multisample-Pool and that´s clearly what most People do with a Sampler.
Omnisphere sample based capabilities are very rudimentary, except of you use the internal library. That disqualifies it as a "sampler" to me (it falls into the ROMpler category). And although it does wavetable and granular, none of those two is at the same level (or even close) to HALion or Falcon. So, even as synths, HALion and Falcons are better than Omnisphere IMO, and as samplers they simply cannot be compared.
Last edited by fmr on Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fernando (FMR)

GRUMP
KVRist
160 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Hybrid Synth Sampler "Workstations" - Details, Experiences, Discussion

Post Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:37 pm

fmr wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:02 pm
Omnisphere sample based capabilities are very rudimentaruy, except of you use the internal library. That disqualifies it as a "sampler" to me (it falls into the ROMpler category). And although it does wavetable and granular, none of those two is at the same level (or even close) to HALion or Falcon. So, even as synths, HALion and Falcons are better than Omnisphere IMO, and as samplers they simply cannot be compared.
Anyway - the ASR10 has been the only REAL Sampler for me - RIP - have you made Sound Design with Omnisphere altready?

I have heard some Demos and this "ROMpler" seems to be a really outstanding VST. It can sound soft and brilliant. First Pad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dKiDV-G3CM

I didn´t investigate deeper yet, I´m involved .. and that´s why I´m very interested in other Musicians and especially Sound Designers Experiences. Is this System "open" for the User or does the User have restricted Possibilities. And how much of the Sound is "Sampe Magic" that has nothing to do with the Synthesis Engines? How about the Workflow? And quick Results? Promises they make? Creating Libraries? Details ...

"Openness" is a crucial Factor for me. I want to be able to load and export Wavetables and other relevant Elemnts. I want easy Patch- and File Management and Things like that so Investigation usually takes some Time. So ...
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

User avatar
Faiky
KVRist
187 posts since 23 Jun, 2012

Re: Hybrid Synth Sampler "Workstations" - Details, Experiences, Discussion

Post Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:11 am

GRUMP wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:14 pm
Faiky wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:46 am
MSoundfactory has a sampler with keyzones, velocity layer, round robin, meaningful automation processes, batch processes (import and trim, copy pitched voices and keep formants...), loading sfz..., too. Unfortunately it isn't listed on the website or in the documentation.
Have they implemented it already? When I lastly read about it some Months ago it was still a ToDo...
What do you mean with Round Robin? And how about Slicing and Mapping Functions?

I must admit that I didn´t really consider it yet because I frequently feel like beating those Guys up when I look into a Manual. Aargh! :evil:
Yeah, I know. The user manuals and design simply do not reflect what is behind them. But in the end it depends on what you can do with it.

Yes, he works hard. It is the initial stage, everything important is in it, and those who follow it know that it is constantly being improved.
Round Robin is the way to play multiple samples in the same group. One after the other or random.
It is not intended for editing, no slicing. Start, end, various kinds of loops, crossfade and so on. It's a sampler, not a slicer. It can autmaticly sort the velocity and pitch that saves a lot of work.
Granulizer is planed, too. But I just made one for myself, creating own instruments is quite easy.

A few things put me off in the beginning, but you will be surprised what is possible. You have access to all effects there. The possibilities are a endless paradise, if you don't want to do standard things and always want to go a bit further like me, then it's maybe the right thing.

For me there are just other things that make MSF so attractive. Copy paste possibilities everywhere, oversampling of all modules and effects, feedback routing, the analog function, a clear concept and design throughout, random button, own random buttons with specialized settings, relative quickly created own instruments, the waveform and automation drawing system, constantly remarkable changes, direct help in the plugin for the knobs and buttons, pitch following, filter resonance and lfo etc. are easily adjustable to audio rate/keytrack, 32 voice unison, unison module... well, I have a feeling melda is underrated.

I don't know if it's for you in the end. But I suggest you take a closer look ;). It's a disguised secret weapon (for me).

GRUMP
KVRist
160 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Hybrid Synth Sampler "Workstations" - Details, Experiences, Discussion

Post Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:37 am

Faiky wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:11 am
GRUMP wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:14 pm
Faiky wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:46 am
MSoundfactory has a sampler with keyzones, velocity layer, round robin, meaningful automation processes, batch processes (import and trim, copy pitched voices and keep formants...), loading sfz..., too. Unfortunately it isn't listed on the website or in the documentation.
Have they implemented it already? When I lastly read about it some Months ago it was still a ToDo...
What do you mean with Round Robin? And how about Slicing and Mapping Functions?

I must admit that I didn´t really consider it yet because I frequently feel like beating those Guys up when I look into a Manual. Aargh! :evil:
Yeah, I know. The user manuals and design simply do not reflect what is behind them. But in the end it depends on what you can do with it.

Yes, he works hard. It is the initial stage, everything important is in it, and those who follow it know that it is constantly being improved.
Round Robin is the way to play multiple samples in the same group. One after the other or random.
It is not intended for editing, no slicing. Start, end, various kinds of loops, crossfade and so on. It's a sampler, not a slicer. It can autmaticly sort the velocity and pitch that saves a lot of work.
Granulizer is planed, too. But I just made one for myself, creating own instruments is quite easy.

A few things put me off in the beginning, but you will be surprised what is possible. You have access to all effects there. The possibilities are a endless paradise, if you don't want to do standard things and always want to go a bit further like me, then it's maybe the right thing.

For me there are just other things that make MSF so attractive. Copy paste possibilities everywhere, oversampling of all modules and effects, feedback routing, the analog function, a clear concept and design throughout, random button, own random buttons with specialized settings, relative quickly created own instruments, the waveform and automation drawing system, constantly remarkable changes, direct help in the plugin for the knobs and buttons, pitch following, filter resonance and lfo etc. are easily adjustable to audio rate/keytrack, 32 voice unison, unison module... well, I have a feeling melda is underrated.

I don't know if it's for you in the end. But I suggest you take a closer look ;). It's a disguised secret weapon (for me).
That is goo to know, thank you.

I´d say it is a Sample Player. It can´t sample nor resample - nor slice as I´ve just learned. Even EPS16+ could handle this. Nothing for me. I need the basic Functionalities most. I think it may be interesting for normal "Users". Very interesting. But I´m more like a "Creator". I started with an empty ASR10 in 1996... that has left its Traces. OK, I had 5 or 6 Disks with 1.44 MB of Samples each. But anyway - the basic Functionalities of a Sampler are most important. Slicing, Trimming, Mapping, Layering, Variation ... And maybe good FX. I just say DP4. And Routing should not be underrated. But the Rest is not really for me. Except maybe MB-Processing. As far as I know that is Melds Core-Ability and surely Part of their Instruments, too?
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

User avatar
Faiky
KVRist
187 posts since 23 Jun, 2012

Re: Hybrid Synth Sampler "Workstations" - Details, Experiences, Discussion

Post Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:42 am

GRUMP wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:37 am
That is goo to know, thank you.

I´d say it is a Sample Player. It can´t sample nor resample - nor slice as I´ve just learned. Even EPS16+ could handle this. Nothing for me. I need the basic Functionalities most. I think it may be interesting for normal "Users". Very interesting. But I´m more like a "Creator". I started with an empty ASR10 in 1996... that has left its Traces. OK, I had 5 or 6 Disks with 1.44 MB of Samples each. But anyway - the basic Functionalities of a Sampler are most important. Slicing, Trimming, Mapping, Layering, Variation ... And maybe good FX. I just say DP4. And Routing should not be underrated. But the Rest is not really for me. Except maybe MB-Processing. As far as I know that is Melds Core-Ability and surely Part of their Instruments, too?
Perhaps pictures say more than words. Probably it's not what you are used to and that's not for you, but maybe for others who look at this thread.
Sampler.jpg
Sample_Cutter.jpg

Think sample or resample is basic, i understand you use it to change the pitch?
Yes, you can have multiple band, also channels (M/S, L/R) everywhere.
The crossover options:
crossover.jpg

The current FXs:
FX.jpg

The generator and modules:
Generator.jpg

Sorry for the big pictures, don't know how to make thumbnails here.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

GRUMP
KVRist
160 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Hybrid Synth Sampler "Workstations" - Details, Experiences, Discussion

Post Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:16 pm

Faiky wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:42 am

Perhaps pictures say more than words. Probably it's not what you are used to and that's not for you, but maybe for others who look at this thread.

Think sample or resample is basic, i understand you use it to change the pitch?
Yes, you can have multiple band, also channels (M/S, L/R) everywhere.

Sorry for the big pictures, don't know how to make thumbnails here.
THANK you for the big Pictures. The Pictures in general. They tell me a lot about it and it looks good!

I use Resampling for recording the End-Result of the internal Processing and Stacking ...

Multi Band Processing is a really awesome Feature, one Thing I dream of to have in Halion. I recommend not to underestimate this Option. If the Bands can be modulated it gives you endless Possibilities for Expressions and Vartiation. Thumbs up!

Me personally - I´m just looking at the Moment. MSF is one of the first Tools that Delivers such Options - and there will soon be many more. Lets call them "Platforms". I assume that they will will repress most of the other "Solutions". If so it will be crucial which Platform you work on.

By the Way: the Steinbergs are just selling Halion and Groove Agent for 50% and I couldn´t resist. Groove Agent is no Platform, but it is a good complement to Halion on the Steinberg Platform. It prooved again that a different Structure (GA is like Halion but focussed on Beats) makes a big Difference in the End and that means i. m. O., that the Structure of those Work Stations will have a big Impact on the Results and will be even more important then. Meldas UI is fine, but not for everyone. I prefer Clarity - and just dicovered again (bx Consoles N, SSL, Focusrite), that less is sometimes more, EQ is not EQ and an Option is never the same Sound in the End ...
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

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