Can't stop playing with XLN's XO...Is it just me?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
KVRAF
8887 posts since 12 May, 2008

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:54 am

Is there any setting to change the default note length when you export a midi pattern? As it is now, each drum step creates a note about a third of a 1/16th note in length, and since Bitwig's sampler defaults to a rather short release time, it requires a lot of tweaking of sounds or note lengths to make it sound as it did in XO. It would be good maybe if it filled the note division (full 1/16th), or there was an option. Maybe there is and I haven't found it...
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

KVRist
353 posts since 21 Sep, 2003

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:40 am

Is there sort of a history for the drums you’ve clicked on? In other words if I click around and want to go back to a certain sound I heard, is there a way to do that?

KVRian
633 posts since 18 Dec, 2007

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:54 am

Things I'd like to see in XO include;

The ability to pitch up/down in the sequencer.
An increased amount of steps on screen in the sequencer (maybe toggle between expanding the sequencer view and the beat combiner section).
A randomiser the bring in new beat combiner patterns (the ones extracted from presets).
The ability to play in rhythms in the sequencer, including pitch. I'm not much of a clicker when it comes to rhythm.

There's more I'd like to see, but that would be enough to get me to take the plunge and spend my hard earned.

KVRAF

Topic Starter

6274 posts since 25 Mar, 2004

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:09 am

m-ac wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:54 am
Things I'd like to see in XO include;

The ability to pitch up/down in the sequencer.

A randomiser the bring in new beat combiner patterns (the ones extracted from presets).
If you mean that you would like to play with the pitch of each hit while a sequence plays, you can do that. On the edit screen each hit has vol/pitch/pan/FX1+2 controls, plus the ability to page through new samples, all while the sequence plays.

Also in the edit screens, both the sequencer side and the sample (kit) side have randomizers (picture of a pair of dice).that will instantly give you new kits and sequences--all while auditiioning, if you like.

Cheers
-B
Berfab
So many plugins, so little time...

KVRAF

Topic Starter

6274 posts since 25 Mar, 2004

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:12 am

yellowmix wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:56 pm
plexuss wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:23 pm
Does XO discriminate about what samples it imports in terms of ignoring loops, synth sounds etc? Is this in the (RT)FM? Where is the FM?
XO doesn't want loops, it's focused on one-shots. With that said, short loops can make it in, not sure what the exact time cutoff is. If it's short it'll accept it and try to categorize it. However, there is a "drumlike" score and it automatically excludes the bottom 10%. So really tonal synth stuff, non-transient FX, vocals, can be found there. Change the slider to 0% and you can play them in the map and you'll see what I mean. On my map they're on the bottom in orange/brown.
I believe that the AI will make exceptions for longer single tones (drones, etc.) that essentially qualify more as a lengthy "hit" as opposed to a beat loop which it will discard. I've noticed several of the factory preset sequences make use of drone hits that last a full measure or more.
Berfab
So many plugins, so little time...

KVRAF

Topic Starter

6274 posts since 25 Mar, 2004

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:14 am

plexuss wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:58 am
I saw the title of this thread and decided, ok I'll demo it. Now I own it. Amazing. The UX is excellent - it's very intuitive to use and has a ton of features but doesn't bog me down. Normally I don't work with tools like this: samples, loops etc. But XO makes doing this fun - just like the title of the thread. And, the ability to now use all my orphaned single-hits from various places is great! It adds a lot of value to my sample library - I rarely use single-hits and XO now makes those valuable. I was hesitant to pay $180US although now after using it for a few days I think the price is warranted. Better yet I found a license at a great price in forsale. The loops out of XO now supplement my algo drum tools and BFD very nicely. Thanks for the heads-up on this! :party:
:tu:
Berfab
So many plugins, so little time...

KVRian
633 posts since 18 Dec, 2007

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:14 am

BERFAB wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:09 am
m-ac wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:54 am
Things I'd like to see in XO include;

The ability to pitch up/down in the sequencer.

A randomiser the bring in new beat combiner patterns (the ones extracted from presets).
If you mean that you would like to play with the pitch of each hit while a sequence plays, you can do that. On the edit screen each hit has vol/pitch/pan/FX1+2 controls, plus the ability to page through new samples, all while the sequence plays.

Also in the edit screens, both the sequencer side and the sample (kit) side have randomizers (picture of a pair of dice).that will instantly give you new kits and sequences--all while auditiioning, if you like.

Cheers
-B
What I mean is adjust the pitch per step of the sequencer - think along the lines of using an 808 as a pitched bass line in a single track.

The randomiser only chooses from the currently shown midi patterns. I can't see a way of randomly generating a new list of midi patterns, but hopefully I'm wrong?

KVRAF

Topic Starter

6274 posts since 25 Mar, 2004

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:01 am

m-ac wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:14 am
BERFAB wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:09 am
m-ac wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:54 am
Things I'd like to see in XO include;

The ability to pitch up/down in the sequencer.

A randomiser the bring in new beat combiner patterns (the ones extracted from presets).
If you mean that you would like to play with the pitch of each hit while a sequence plays, you can do that. On the edit screen each hit has vol/pitch/pan/FX1+2 controls, plus the ability to page through new samples, all while the sequence plays.

Also in the edit screens, both the sequencer side and the sample (kit) side have randomizers (picture of a pair of dice).that will instantly give you new kits and sequences--all while auditiioning, if you like.

Cheers
-B
What I mean is adjust the pitch per step of the sequencer - think along the lines of using an 808 as a pitched bass line in a single track.

The randomiser only chooses from the currently shown midi patterns. I can't see a way of randomly generating a new list of midi patterns, but hopefully I'm wrong?
I see. You're out of my depth with both of those.

Although, if you create a new preset with one of the randomized sequences from a prior preset, I wonder if the new preset will present with an entirely new set of MIDI patterns for randomization. I'll have to try this.

Cheers
-B
Berfab
So many plugins, so little time...

KVRAF
1786 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:19 pm

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:54 am
Is there any setting to change the default note length when you export a midi pattern? As it is now, each drum step creates a note about a third of a 1/16th note in length, and since Bitwig's sampler defaults to a rather short release time, it requires a lot of tweaking of sounds or note lengths to make it sound as it did in XO. It would be good maybe if it filled the note division (full 1/16th), or there was an option. Maybe there is and I haven't found it...
XO is a drum machine so it plays samples as one-shots as dictated by the envelope. The MIDI note length is not related to the actual sound as it does not have envelope and other processing information. You'll want to replicate the envelope, pitch, other processing in your target instrument. Or export the processed samples and see if you can switch/configure your sampler to play in one-shot mode.

I don't use Bitwig but if there's no one-shot mode in the sampler try something with 100% sustain, a long hold and/or release and enable choke group on itself. If it's really cumbersome does Bitwig not have a drum rack like Ableton?

KVRAF
1786 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:21 pm

tdm71 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:40 am
Is there sort of a history for the drums you’ve clicked on? In other words if I click around and want to go back to a certain sound I heard, is there a way to do that?
Yes, click on the arrows on the bottom bar next to "History". Or use the up/down keys on your computer keyboard. If you watch the videos I linked to earlier in this post it'll tell you about 70% of what you can do (they haven't done one about the Beat and Sample Combiners yet).

KVRist
185 posts since 30 Mar, 2019

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:29 pm

m-ac wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:54 am
Things I'd like to see in XO include;

The ability to pitch up/down in the sequencer.
An increased amount of steps on screen in the sequencer (maybe toggle between expanding the sequencer view and the beat combiner section).
A randomiser the bring in new beat combiner patterns (the ones extracted from presets).
The ability to play in rhythms in the sequencer, including pitch. I'm not much of a clicker when it comes to rhythm.

There's more I'd like to see, but that would be enough to get me to take the plunge and spend my hard earned.
to be honest I think XO is utterly phenomenal but *personally* I do agree that some more features would justify the hardcore price tag.

if the sequencer was more XILS-STIX or Geist2 calibre with more effects and more of a full featured instrument level setup, this would be a hit.

I look forward to seeing where they go with it though

KVRAF
1786 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:42 pm

m-ac wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:14 am
The randomiser only chooses from the currently shown midi patterns. I can't see a way of randomly generating a new list of midi patterns, but hopefully I'm wrong?
You are correct. I think the Beat Combiner patterns are specific to the samples in the kit, likely drawing from similar samples and what patterns they are used for in their presets.

Take a look at Minimal Steady State, make note of one or two unique patterns in the Beat Combiner. Now go to the next preset, Minimal Steady Triplets. Do those patterns change? They did not for me. The two presets have the exact same samples. Now go to the next (or any other) preset, look at the patterns. They change.

Now go to any other preset. Then go back to the previous one. Are the patterns the same before you switched? They are for me.

A more specific test. Make note of the patterns for any slot. Exit Beat Combiner, go to Space, replace the sample with any other. Go to Beat Combiner, the patterns change. Exit and go back to Space, go back in history to the original sample. Go to Beat Combiner. The patterns are the same as before, right?

So now I wonder if adding my own presets influences existing Beat Combiner patterns or they are generated during sample classification. I think the latter is the case because that is optimal in terms of when the CPU crunching needs to happen.

With that said, I think XO can definitely get more patterns since it can refresh the similarity list in Space. However, it will require preset scanning unless there's a way to pre-index/cache it. I notice XLN wanted really snappy UI reaction times (the fact it can audition samples so fast is amazing to me).

KVRAF
8887 posts since 12 May, 2008

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:54 pm

yellowmix wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:19 pm
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:54 am
Is there any setting to change the default note length when you export a midi pattern? As it is now, each drum step creates a note about a third of a 1/16th note in length, and since Bitwig's sampler defaults to a rather short release time, it requires a lot of tweaking of sounds or note lengths to make it sound as it did in XO. It would be good maybe if it filled the note division (full 1/16th), or there was an option. Maybe there is and I haven't found it...
XO is a drum machine so it plays samples as one-shots as dictated by the envelope. The MIDI note length is not related to the actual sound as it does not have envelope and other processing information. You'll want to replicate the envelope, pitch, other processing in your target instrument. Or export the processed samples and see if you can switch/configure your sampler to play in one-shot mode.

I don't use Bitwig but if there's no one-shot mode in the sampler try something with 100% sustain, a long hold and/or release and enable choke group on itself. If it's really cumbersome does Bitwig not have a drum rack like Ableton?
Yeah it has a drum rack, but of course that is just a container. To play the samples on the pads, it must load a sampler device. Unfortunately the default saved preset does not load when samples are dropped and automatically laod a sampler, so no initial higher release possible. So tweaking the release of all the samplers of the drum rack would be the work around, but it seems like it woul dmake a lot more sense for XO to just output the length of the step, no? I mean sure it's a drum machine and the length isn't relevant within the plugin, but when it exports midi, it needs to pick a note length. It seems arbitrarily short at the moment, why not the step length...
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

KVRAF
1786 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:04 pm

mxbf wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:29 pm
if the sequencer was more XILS-STIX or Geist2 calibre with more effects and more of a full featured instrument level setup, this would be a hit.
Geist 2 retails for $199, Stix is 179 Euro about $199. XO is $179 (and the Lite is $119). I don't think it's fair to expect XO at its current pricepoint to be the same calibre as full-fledged drum machines especially like Geist 2 and have this amazing AI classification and search. Note Algonaut Atlas retails for $99, you get XO Lite for $20 more, which is a no-brainer to me.

KVRAF
1786 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:20 pm

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:54 pm
I mean sure it's a drum machine and the length isn't relevant within the plugin, but when it exports midi, it needs to pick a note length. It seems arbitrarily short at the moment, why not the step length...
Send a feature request to XLN, I don't think it's arbitrary though since it provides room to nudge the timing or add additional hits in a MIDI editor. Otherwise I'd be shortening the note to make room.

But yeah, I can see the problem if you really want it to act as note off. Does Bitwig have any quantize options to snap note ends to grids? Or a way to set all notes to a specific length? It's one button press for me in my DAW.

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