Released: Free Synthesizer Odin 2 [Win / Mac / Linux]

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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fmr
KVRAF
10542 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:12 pm

TheWaveWarden wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:41 am
I guess this is as good as any time to announce that I am working on yet another synthesizer.

It's not Odin 3, but a completely different beast. I'm trying to go down a more "modern" route this time, both in terms of UI as well as synthesis approach. The synth is based around the concept of wave-morphing :D

Forgive the pescy gif quality:
ezgif-3-28a76efd0f84.gif



If you want to be kept in the loop regarding updates on this instrument, consider following my twitter :wink:
Looks insteresting. I don't do Twitter, but I hope you publish an announcement here at KVR when ready. :tu:
Fernando (FMR)

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KVRAF
16432 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Post Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:51 pm

TheWaveWarden wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:57 am
Teksonik wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:51 am
Anyway I'm getting a lot of pops on note re-trigger with this patch. Can you take a look at it ?
The settings are similar to those I've done many times in other synths.
My guess is you're using polyphony? The patch you posted uses 6x Unison - this means a stack of 6 voices is triggered for each note. So if you play more than four notes (or have them in release), new voices will be stolen, since max voice count is 24. Hence the clicks.

I suggest using multiple instances or lowering unison count here :ud:
Hmmm like I said I've used those same settings in many other synths without issue. I fact I normally use more than 6 voice Unison and play with the same polyphony.

Oh well I guess it is what it is..... :?
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

KVRist
289 posts since 12 May, 2004

Post Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:36 pm

Teksonik wrote:
Hmmm like I said I've used those same settings in many other synths without issue. I fact I normally use more than 6 voice Unison and play with the same polyphony.

Oh well I guess it is what it is..... :?
I don’t think your assessment is off base at all. I think Odin 2’s greatest weakness is the lack of a reasonably executed optimized build. As good as it can and does sound, it most definitely eats a lot of CPU once the Unison count rises…. that other similarly voiced synths, do not exhibit. But…then again, …it is free…so there’s that.
On a number of Macs

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KVRist

Topic Starter

260 posts since 10 Apr, 2020

Post Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:55 pm

Teksonik wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:51 pm
Hmmm like I said I've used those same settings in many other synths without issue. I fact I normally use more than 6 voice Unison and play with the same polyphony.

Oh well I guess it is what it is..... :?
Yes, the voice count has a hard limit there. If you're really after it and know how to compile stuff you can change this code line to whatever value you want. :wink:
Weasel-Boy wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:36 pm
I don’t think your assessment is off base at all. I think Odin 2’s greatest weakness is the lack of a reasonably executed optimized build. As good as it can and does sound, it most definitely eats a lot of CPU once the Unison count rises…. that other similarly voiced synths, do not exhibit. But…then again, …it is free…so there’s that.
Yes, I'm totally with you here. Not having been in the industry for as long as most of the popular synth brands, I still learn a lot with every project. One of the things I learned with Odin 2 was that it is a bad idea to write "sample based processing". That is: I render one sample of oscs, render this sample in the filter and continue through the entire chain, after which the next sample is done.

This has one big advantage, which is sample-accurate automation. You can do stuff like FM via the ModMatrix for example. But the downside is slower execution, since the CPU needs to shuffle a lot more data between caches and the RAM and there's a lot less opportunity for vectorization.

I get where the comparisons to other synths come from, but Odin will not reach their level of execution unless I rewrite the better part of the audio engine. I have this in mind for my followup projects though, so they will have better performance :)

KVRAF
4243 posts since 21 Mar, 2020 from Gothenburg, Sweden

Post Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:46 am

Looking forward to the new machine WW. :tu:
Bah! Humbug!

KVRian
519 posts since 28 Oct, 2014

Post Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:34 am

I'm still getting the little bug where the preset panel doesn't remember what preset you're on if you close and re-open the plugin window.

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KVRAF
16432 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Post Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:05 am

TheWaveWarden wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:55 pm
Teksonik wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:51 pm
Hmmm like I said I've used those same settings in many other synths without issue. I fact I normally use more than 6 voice Unison and play with the same polyphony.
Yes, the voice count has a hard limit there. If you're really after it and know how to compile stuff you can change this code line to whatever value you want. :wink:

I don't write code or know how to compile but it looks like the voice polyphony is 24? Something else is at play then because I don't get clicks in other synths which have a limit of 16 poly.

I assume changing it involves more than than just changing the 24 to 64.

Anyway good luck with your future endeavors.... :tu:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

KVRist
289 posts since 12 May, 2004

Post Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:45 pm

TheWaveWarden wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:55 pm
Yes, I'm totally with you here. Not having been in the industry for as long as most of the popular synth brands, I still learn a lot with every project. One of the things I learned with Odin 2 was that it is a bad idea to write "sample based processing". That is: I render one sample of oscs, render this sample in the filter and continue through the entire chain, after which the next sample is done.

This has one big advantage, which is sample-accurate automation. You can do stuff like FM via the ModMatrix for example. But the downside is slower execution, since the CPU needs to shuffle a lot more data between caches and the RAM and there's a lot less opportunity for vectorization.

I get where the comparisons to other synths come from, but Odin will not reach their level of execution unless I rewrite the better part of the audio engine. I have this in mind for my followup projects though, so they will have better performance :)
I (and I assume anyone reading this) appreciate your candor. Still, even with the potential for CPU strain, Odin 2 is a fun, well laid out and clever synth. I look forward to your next effort and wish you luck with that.
On a number of Macs

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KVRAF
21938 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:41 am

Teksonik wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:05 am
I don't write code or know how to compile but it looks like the voice polyphony is 24? Something else is at play then because I don't get clicks in other synths which have a limit of 16 poly.

I assume changing it involves more than than just changing the 24 to 64.

Anyway good luck with your future endeavors.... :tu:
As TWW mentioned, Odin does its processing per sample, rather than in blocks like majority of other instrument plugins. This comes at a CPU cost, but allows audio rate modulations.

Also, unison in Odin duplicates the WHOLE voice, not just the oscillators. This is much more CPU expensive.

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KVRist

Topic Starter

260 posts since 10 Apr, 2020

Post Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:11 am

Ah, I think there's some confusion here: The clicks Teksonic is experiencing are due to the 24 voice limit being reached and hence running voices being stolen, not a CPU limit. The CPU discussion kinda spawned out of this anyway.

Anyways, I think all has been said on the issue :tu:
Teksonik wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:05 am
I assume changing it involves more than than just changing the 24 to 64
Yes, that would be all :)

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KVRAF
16432 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Post Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:12 am

TheWaveWarden wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:11 am
Ah, I think there's some confusion here: The clicks Teksonic is experiencing are due to the 24 voice limit being reached and hence running voices being stolen, not a CPU limit. The CPU discussion kinda spawned out of this anyway.
Yes I didn't even bother looking at the CPU meter it was just the clicks seemed to be a re-triggering issue. It's not a buffer overload issue or any audio issue to do with CPU demand. I thought perhaps it was an envelope issue rather than a polyphony issue.

All I know is I don't get the same clicks when playing a similar patch in the same manner even in synths with a 16 note poly limit. Perhaps that is indeed down to how Odin handles polyphony but bottom line is it makes playing those kinds of patches rather unpleasant in sound due to the clicks.
TheWaveWarden wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:11 am
Teksonik wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:05 am
I assume changing it involves more than than just changing the 24 to 64
Yes, that would be all :)
So you're saying all you'd have to do is change the 24 to say 64 in order to increase the Polyphony? Would it be worth trying that as an experiment as a separate release just to see what happens? I'd be happy to test it here. I wouldn't have the first clue how to compile a version.

Don't get me wrong Odin is a great sounding synth and I do love all the Osc and filter options. I just wanted to report the clicks in case it was a a fixable issue. :)
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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KVRist

Topic Starter

260 posts since 10 Apr, 2020

Post Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:28 am

Teksonik wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:12 am
So you're saying all you'd have to do is change the 24 to say 64 in order to increase the Polyphony? Would it be worth trying that as an experiment as a separate release just to see what happens? I'd be happy to test it here. I wouldn't have the first clue how to compile a version.
Ok, find your custom build here:

https://github.com/TheWaveWarden/odin2/ ... ghtlyDevel

This one has 48 voices. You might be wondering why I didn't do this in the regular build, or even 1000 voices ;-) The answer, again, is performance:
Having all those voices lying around in memory is not going to speed up things. Whatsmore, I kinda want to save users from themselves: Its easy to crank up unison to 6 and play a few notes with long release until the voice limit is reached without realizing what's happening. Playing more than the original 24 voices simultaneusly is where you will certainly need a more powerful system to run it all in one thread. Following are complaints that the synth shows bad performance. I'd rather limit voices to begin with :neutral:
Teksonik wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:12 am
All I know is I don't get the same clicks when playing a similar patch in the same manner even in synths with a 16 note poly limit.
Most synth will use a different unison system, where the osc itself produces unison inside one voice: Hence you get 16 voices, no matter what unison amount you set. With (regular) Odin 2 you get 24 divided by unison amount.

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KVRAF
16432 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Post Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:17 am

TheWaveWarden wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:28 am
Ok, find your custom build here:
Thanks, I'll give it a go today.
TheWaveWarden wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:28 am
This one has 48 voices. You might be wondering why I didn't do this in the regular build, or even 1000 voices ;-) The answer, again, is performance:
Having all those voices lying around in memory is not going to speed up things. Whatsmore, I kinda want to save users from themselves: Its easy to crank up unison to 6 and play a few notes with long release until the voice limit is reached without realizing what's happening. Playing more than the original 24 voices simultaneusly is where you will certainly need a more powerful system to run it all in one thread. Following are complaints that the synth shows bad performance. I'd rather limit voices to begin with :neutral:
Ok if you're more concerned about CPU than sound. I'd rather have a synth that I'm able to play without clicks or limitations using a patch that every other synth can handle. :shrug:
Teksonik wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:12 am
All I know is I don't get the same clicks when playing a similar patch in the same manner even in synths with a 16 note poly limit.
TheWaveWarden wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:28 am
Most synth will use a different unison system, where the osc itself produces unison inside one voice: Hence you get 16 voices, no matter what unison amount you set. With (regular) Odin 2 you get 24 divided by unison amount.
Ok fair enough but most other synths can handle playing a simple filter pad without clicks so I prefer that method.

But thanks again for the more polyphony version. I'll let you know how it goes.... :tu:

EDIT: Ok the clicks are gone with this version and yes it does require a fair bit of CPU. I would not recommend anyone use this version with much older CPUs. My studio system runs an i7 8700K which is by no means state of the art but does turbo up to 4.7 GHz.

Anyway thanks again and I'll be looking forward to your future projects.
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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KVRist
102 posts since 3 Oct, 2019

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:43 am

Venus Theory did a pretty favorable review of Odin II:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUDR-MmWbPE

KVRAF
2677 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:57 am

Yes, this is an awesome synth to get creative with!
Windows10; plugins from AAS, Ableton, AIR, Ample, Arturia, Cakewalk, Cherry, DiscoDSP, Fathom, IKM, Initial, iZotope, KV331, NI, PluginGuru, PreSonus, Surge, TAL, Tone2, Toontrack, Tracktion, u-he, UJAM, UVI, Vital, Waves, XLN ...

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