The Most Overrated and Underrated VST/AU (Effects And Instruments)

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
12707 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:11 pm

PLEASE DO ME THE COURTESY OF READING THIS BEFORE YOU DELETE IT (because I agree that this kind of worthless shit shouldn't be left here). In fact, it's a real symptom of the problem, which is that everyone wants to make everything about people when this place should be about ideas.
Hink wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:53 am
Go ahead, post a multiple paragraph post that takes you a while to write...just imply and use terms like idiot and half a brain, any form of attack.
It's not an attack, it's a simple ranking of opinions. You want to live in a world where the most misguided, idiotic post is treated the same as a scientifically verified fact but that world simply cannot function. That's the world in which Flat-Earthers flourish and I am not about to do anything that gives those f**king idiots any oxygen. And, yes, if you believe the Earth is flat, you are not misguided, not misinformed, because even the most misguided and misinformed will change their opinion when confronted by incontrovertible evidence that their belief is wrong. Which means anyone who persists with such an absurd belief in the face of all the evidence is nothing more than a f**king idiot.

It's exactly what happens here. e.g. Look at the Thorn thread. I provided test results, with a link to the source material, that provided compelling evidence that Apple's M1 chips are not the miracles Apple says they are. The evidence is clear and unbiased, it should be enough to make any reasonable person of even average intelligence see the truth of the situation. But no, what happened instead is that someone posted a generic graph that supports their position but provides no detail into how the tests were conducted, making it impossible to know the veracity of the results. But that's OK, because here at KVR, you don't have to have any proof that what your saying is correct, every word you type must be taken as the gospel truth and any post that dares to suggest you may be mistaken, will now be removed without warning.

Just like anything else, if someone accuses you of being an idiot or of saying something idiotic, it's really easy to make them look stupid by proving your point. Of course, that doesn't happen around here because no-one seems to even understand how to prove anything, or what proof even look like, because they've never had to. Honestly, it's a f**king nightmare and it makes this place increasingly worthless as a source of knowledge and help. If anyone asked me where to go to learn about music production, I would never recommend KVR because it is virtually impossible to sort the wheat from the (considerable amount of) chaff.

To expand my point, a lot of opinions posted here are based on no evidence, zero research and they fly in the face of reality, but you want them to be treated the same as another opinion based on careful research and decades of first-hand experience. If you can explain to me how that helps anyone, I'm all ears. In the meantime, if someone says something stupid, I will continue to call that thing stupid and attempt, at least on the first occasion, to explain why.
People misguidedly blame me for you and your piss poor childish behavior I am sick to death of it, You need to stop...you bring good points but you need to learn how to talk to people and trust me I am done with you.
The problem is definitely not me. People need to be able to take critique, to learn and grow, but instead you are curating a worthless echo chamber. Who does that help?
you will, not abuse people here anymore.
Believe me, I have never abused anyone here. If you think calling someone an idiot because of something they've said is abuse, then you must have forgotten what it was like to be in the Military. There is nothing I say to people here that I don't also say to people's face every day at work, at the pub and at home. I call my boss an idiot on a semi-regular basis and, just like everyone else, she never bats an eyelid. This is absolutely the only place where anyone has even the tiniest problem with it and, honestly, it's pathetic. If you can't have a robust discussion and take it on the chin when you say something stupid and get called out for it, then what's the f**king point of discussing anything at all?
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, Olga, VG Iron | Uno Pro, Uno, Rocket.

vertibration
KVRian
586 posts since 11 Nov, 2010 from ny

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:20 pm

underrated Arturia mini v. I just like its modulation capability, still doesnt sound as good as others, but others cant modulate like mini v can. Except monark in blocks though. I still prefer mini v for ease of use. Slap a VSM-3 on it and it can crank pretty good.

overrated softube modular. I absolutely hate the UI. Very clunky and slow to load modules. Sounds insane but really painful to use.

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Hink
Rad Grandad
35630 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:02 pm

all those things you say a whole bunch of members do everyday, people can make points without raising the ire of so many. I am not going to get others to accept such negative behavior, the more logical solution for all is to adjust said behavior.

Yes sir, I remember exactly my days in the military and the one thing that was top was respect, respect wasnt earned it was a given, we trusted each other with our lives. Dont play that game with me.

Then there is this justification

To expand my point, a lot of opinions posted here are based on no evidence, zero research and they fly in the face of reality, but you want them to be treated the same as another opinion based on careful research and decades of first-hand experience.

well now that you explain good lord you're right, in fact line em up against the wall and give em their last cigarette. :borg:

I dont think it's as much about how you treat opinions as it is about how you treat those people, they do not come here to be offended and whether you agree you are offending others it does create a hostile atmosphere.

I was going to say nobody has the right to offensive, but that's not true one technically has the right, it may not be the right thing to do but one has the right I suppose, but one must also except the ramifications from said behaviors. In this case a ramification that I see is you constantly draw the wrath of many, you do what you are doing to me right here and it becomes very disruptive to the forum.

What is the difference between "you would would be wrong if" and "you would have to be an idiot if" besides posturing? The evidence is there that this issue is an antecedent to many threads getting derailed, ultimately completely off path. Should we keep the head and toss the body, cut it off at the head or try to find a common ground. I prefer the latter, a lot of patience is shown toward you, we have new members all the time and the forum is evolving...is too much to ask you for a little cooperation?
Words are a barrier to help-seeking and a motivator for making discrimination acceptable.
Mad Pride
If there is a direction to mankind, it ought to be a coming together Brian May

kinwie
KVRist
456 posts since 22 Aug, 2013

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:16 pm

Underrated,
GSpace by GVST. Never heard any praise of it but it always sounds good on anything, especially guitars. It never out of beta, LOL.

Free JCM800 Preamp by Mercuriall also seems underrated. No one talks about it.
It's the first plugin that made me "Wow!!"
Astonishing and timeless tone, almost like the real thing!

Overrated...hmm...
Cant find one yet...

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cyrb
KVRist
64 posts since 11 Jun, 2019

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:02 pm

briefcasemanx wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:09 am
cyrb wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:56 pm
I ran some audio through a real SVHS and cassette deck, and it sounds nothing like the fake exaggerated effects all those plugins seem to make. In fact the effect can be quite subtle that some wouldn't even call it "analog enough".

Though maybe it's good if your bottom line is appealing to Synthwave/Vaporwave stoners who don't know any better on what analog is or isn't. But if you actually think fake flutter and VHS wobbles enhance the production pre-mastering, you're probably trying to cover up flaws in your music.
What are you arguing exactly, that consumer analog tape cannot heavily distort? It absolutely can. I'm going to assume that you're very young if you don't think it can. Not every single tape, especially in good condition and played on a quality playback system sounds like Vaporware or whatever.

You could argue that every single effects process is to cover up flaws in your music. Arguing that aesthetic choices that you don't personally care for are made in order to "cover up flaws" is an incredibly logically terrible argument. As well as just plain ignorant and disingenuous.
That's like saying, "Are you saying cars can't blow up and burst into flames? Because they can." I'm well aware badly calibrated equipment and worn media can sound very unstable. We are talking about the usual experience here. To make it clear, I am vehemently against "vaporwave" and the entire creative process used to make it (and yes, I know this is not the only application ).

I simply consider extreme, exaggerated degradation to be tasteless. I see it as a way to make anything sound "good" (to a certain audience) without much effort. There is a vast amount of very low quality "lo-fi" or "vaporwave" on YouTube, often remixing old game music or jpop. A lot if it literally has no frequency content above 8 kHz and everyone's too busy enjoying the rose tinted glasses to care, like the opium folk in The Odyssey.

Obviously effects can improve sounds. But there is a difference between using chorus, reverb, delay, and just putting an entire mix in a low pass filter, heavy tube saturation, heavy wow/flutter, and adding vinyl noise. I could go on at length with more reasons.

I also think pretty much every plugin out there doesn't sound at all like real analog tape, and if you really want to clone Boards of Canada, you need to dub and overdub on real analog equipment. I dig the creative process there, just not the aesthetic chasing aspect. Same goes for fake VHS filters in video editing, it's not hard to tell when its fake/pandering.

In summary, a balance has to exist between perfect digital audio, and the imperfections of analog recording equipment.

enCiphered
KVRian
1000 posts since 13 Dec, 2016

Post Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:08 pm

Hink wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:02 pm
Yes sir, I remember exactly my days in the military and the one thing that was top was respect, respect wasnt earned it was a given, we trusted each other with our lives.
:clap:
We cannot emphasize enough the importance of respect.
I'm very grateful that we have someone here who cares about it.
Thanks Hink, I know how thankless it can be to be a mod, so I wanted to give a bit of support and let you know that you are doing a great job.

This forum place is great, a great community of awesome and interesting people from all over the globe. Lets keep it clean and pleasent :tu:

briefcasemanx
KVRian
1036 posts since 28 Jul, 2006

Post Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:16 am

cyrb wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:02 pm
...I simply consider extreme, exaggerated degradation to be tasteless...
Adding more words beyond "I don't like stuff that some other people like" isn't making your post any more interesting, IMO. More self-aggrandizing perhaps, when you continually go out of your way to put down others for liking different things. Or when you try to rationalize your opinions with absolutely bizarre strawmen about how adding certain types of effects makes "anything sound good" so certain tasteless individuals, but definitely not more conversationally interesting.

There's tons of types of music I don't like or just don't get. That's okay.

tony10000
KVRian
1163 posts since 4 Aug, 2017

Post Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:34 pm

Hive sounds amazing. Always has. Here are soundpack demos from version 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqQsSCrLhCg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1J2eTkp148

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DrGonzo
KVRAF
2735 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest

Post Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:35 am

vertibration wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:20 pm
underrated Arturia mini v. I just like its modulation capability, still doesnt sound as good as others, but others cant modulate like mini v can. Except monark in blocks though. I still prefer mini v for ease of use. Slap a VSM-3 on it and it can crank pretty good.
Interesting you mention MiniV. I was just thinking about it the other day - that I actually miss the old plastic sounding filter in it. I understand why Arturia did a deep overhaul of it but in retrospect I wish they would have kept the old filter. Probably impossible because of old code etc - but still.
Plughugger Sound Design
CELLOS OF DARKNESS - Cinematic Cellos for Omnisphere
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

n9n
KVRer
19 posts since 22 Sep, 2021

Post Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:18 pm

cyrb wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:02 pm
I am vehemently against "vaporwave" and the entire creative process used to make it (and yes, I know this is not the only application ).

I simply consider extreme, exaggerated degradation to be tasteless...everyone's too busy enjoying the rose tinted glasses to care, like the opium folk in The Odyssey.

I also think pretty much every plugin out there doesn't sound at all like real analog tape, and if you really want to clone Boards of Canada, you need to dub and overdub on real analog equipment... Same goes for fake VHS filters in video editing, it's not hard to tell when its fake/pandering.
What a truly closed off, uncreative view—and completely non-dialogical. Why even post this? You feel strongly about things. Congrats. We all have strong feelings about our own taste... the only thing special about your take is that you write a post like this and rain on people's parade. What's your goal? To discourage people from doing what they love to do?

Maybe find a way to communicate that is not wholly discouraging, judgemental and so dismissive of other persons creative choices. Your purity politics (which is what you make them when you communicate your personal opinions in this way) are silly: BoC wouldn't have made MHTRTC at all if they listened to the voices like yours in 1997.

This is electronic music. The whole thing started with people "abusing" technology in creative ways. You sound like some square lecturing Derrick May about how he isn't using his TB-303 properly.

n9n
KVRer
19 posts since 22 Sep, 2021

Post Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:58 pm

Underrated, underrepresented:

Expert Sleepers Augustus Loop and Crossfade Loop Sampler. Not pretty, not easy to use, but these plugins can do things that nothing else is able to do and they are very mature. Augustus Loop is a tap-tempo capable live looper that can, if you'd like, loop and overdub on a 1 hour buffer. Really powerful tools that live at the center of my workflow.

The REV-6 reaktor ensemble (came with v3, hard to find) on the "Far Away" Setting is a truly gorgeous algorithmic reverb. Just amazing results with this that I was never able to recreatae on it's successors.

Reaktor Blocks, specifically the ToyBox and ToyBox Nano blocks is able to do so many utility things that are so useful (like generate pitchbend messages!) Really wonderful. Likewise Bitwig Grid, as a UTILITY system, is so, so powerful and makes things easy and possible that were not either.

All the Spitfire Audio EVO or Evolution libraries, most specifically the Olafur Arnalds ones. Just amazing async loop based sample instruments with a creative presentation. Great, great sounds.

Liquisonics Seventh Heaven (in the pro or lite versions) just sounds completely gorgeous.
Last edited by n9n on Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cryophonik
KVRAF
7564 posts since 7 Sep, 2006 from Roseville, CA

Post Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:06 pm

I don’t know if I’d go so far as to call them overrated, but every time I look at the Arturia emulations, it takes me about five minutes to wonder why they get such rave reviews. They just do nothing for me and have this sorta flat, generic, sterile vibe to them. IDK, I guess I just don’t get it or something. :shrug:

JerGoertz
KVRAF
3526 posts since 20 Feb, 2004

Post Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:53 pm

n9n wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:58 pm
The REV-6 reaktor ensemble (came with v3, hard to find) on the "Far Away" Setting is a truly gorgeous algorithmic reverb. Just amazing results with this that I was never able to recreatae on it's successors.
This actually does come with the latest version of Reaktor, there's a .zip in the Reaktor Factory Library location with legacy ensembles (AFAIK, I know I found it recently).
A well-behaved signature.

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DrGonzo
KVRAF
2735 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest

Post Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:26 pm

JerGoertz wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:53 pm
n9n wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:58 pm
The REV-6 reaktor ensemble (came with v3, hard to find) on the "Far Away" Setting is a truly gorgeous algorithmic reverb. Just amazing results with this that I was never able to recreatae on it's successors.
This actually does come with the latest version of Reaktor, there's a .zip in the Reaktor Factory Library location with legacy ensembles (AFAIK, I know I found it recently).
Thanks! You just saved my couple of hours hunting that thing down! :hug:

/C
Plughugger Sound Design
CELLOS OF DARKNESS - Cinematic Cellos for Omnisphere
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

User avatar
cyrb
KVRist
64 posts since 11 Jun, 2019

Post Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:15 am

n9n wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:18 pm
What a truly closed off, uncreative view—and completely non-dialogical. Why even post this? You feel strongly about things. Congrats. We all have strong feelings about our own taste... the only thing special about your take is that you write a post like this and rain on people's parade. What's your goal? To discourage people from doing what they love to do?

Maybe find a way to communicate that is not wholly discouraging, judgemental and so dismissive of other persons creative choices. Your purity politics (which is what you make them when you communicate your personal opinions in this way) are silly: BoC wouldn't have made MHTRTC at all if they listened to the voices like yours in 1997.

This is electronic music. The whole thing started with people "abusing" technology in creative ways. You sound like some square lecturing Derrick May about how he isn't using his TB-303 properly.
Good. If I've kicked anyone off cloud nine, and made them think a bit more critically about what they're putting out, then I have succeeded. I believe in criticism, be it "constructive" or not. Too many producers neglect the importance of skill and instead look for ways to circumvent it. The music production industry is also unbelievably toxic. So many products outright discourage improving skills by trying to do everything for you - reFX Nexus, preset packs, sample packs, loops, MIDI packs, chord progression generators. It's unbelievable how little skill we are led to believe we need, considering how difficult it is to make a living off music. Also I know it's not that simple, considering 80s romplers like Korg M1 were the original "cheats".

This is about skill and integrity. BOC is good, they are skilled and the time they put in bore fruit. I would never ignorantly condemn entire creative processes. But the thing is, audiences don't necessarily have an objective view of either. And it can be extremely tempting to find ways around needing to develop skill or study composition, and instead finding a convenient bandwagon to jump on, a path of least resistance. They think that using plugin x, or sample pack x, or midi loop pack x, or copying viral techniques will catapult them into the spotlight. This is what Jackson Pollock and Steve Reich ultimately decided on in their own time, and it paid off and they essentially avoiding having to study perspective, proportion, harmony, and rhythm.

Vaporwave, lo-fi, chiptune, hyperpop - these are extreme examples of viral clickbait genres, pandering to popular aesthetics and cliches, and have very low (if any) standards to adhere to. That is not to say they cannot be done skillfully and employ a wide range of techniques, but there is very little pressure or expectation to do so, and instead the focus is typically on popularity rather than creative vision.

Hate the critic all you like, but bad music exists, formulaic music exists, amateur music exists. It's not just taste, there are rules and standards to follow. You'll never compose a convincing symphony if all you do is record a vinyl on the line-in and pitch it down, and call it finished in 5 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLTgfaQ_QAY
Last edited by cyrb on Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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