Komplete 13, ladies and gents

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
KVRAF
27213 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:15 am

clipnotic wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:38 am
Subscription models are just working, if many people use them. As Adobe started with that for Photoshop, I stopped using it and meanwhile I have good alternatives.
I have the Affinity apps (Photo and Designer), but, I still find myself editing my photos in Photoshop Elements in 99% for everyday tasks... it's just so damn comfortable, and the automated tools (auto colour correction, auto contrast, auto sharpening) work so damn great that it really makes it hard to work with Affinity, because, they just don't work as good in it. Every time I work with the Affinity apps, I also realize that they require one or two steps more, or, it's just more complicated to understand than Photoshop.

I always find that people are a bit quick by the hand in saying that Adobe just "has the monopoly". Monopolies don't come over night, and they always come with a reason. If every professional could just use a tool you get for 28 € in sale instead (the cost of a one month artistic sub for the Adobe tools), then he would do it.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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KVRian
686 posts since 19 Sep, 2007 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:27 am

chk071 wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:15 am
clipnotic wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:38 am
Subscription models are just working, if many people use them. As Adobe started with that for Photoshop, I stopped using it and meanwhile I have good alternatives.
I have the Affinity apps (Photo and Designer), but, I still find myself editing my photos in Photoshop Elements in 99% for everyday tasks... it's just so damn comfortable, and the automated tools (auto colour correction, auto contrast, auto sharpening) work so damn great that it really makes it hard to work with Affinity, because, they just don't work as good in it. Every time I work with the Affinity apps, I also realize that they require one or two steps more, or, it's just more complicated to understand than Photoshop.

I always find that people are a bit quick by the hand in saying that Adobe just "has the monopoly". Monopolies don't come over night, and they always come with a reason. If every professional could just use a tool you get for 28 € in sale instead (the cost of a one month artistic sub for the Adobe tools), then he would do it.
Like written, Photoshop is still industry standard and the "monopoly" argument was not from me! And yes, Photoshop still is "the best / most comfortable" software in that area, that's the reason, they can still do their subscritpion model. But here we're talking about NI and much more alternatives in the areas virtual instruments, sample instruments and so on.

And NI should better optimize their bundle options first ...

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KVRAF
4112 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:31 am

Developers will develop whatever people are willing to pay for. The best way to avoid spread of subscription models is to not but them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I do pay quite some for permanent licenses, though ;)
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KVRAF
27213 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:39 am

clipnotic wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:27 am
chk071 wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:15 am
clipnotic wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:38 am
Subscription models are just working, if many people use them. As Adobe started with that for Photoshop, I stopped using it and meanwhile I have good alternatives.
I have the Affinity apps (Photo and Designer), but, I still find myself editing my photos in Photoshop Elements in 99% for everyday tasks... it's just so damn comfortable, and the automated tools (auto colour correction, auto contrast, auto sharpening) work so damn great that it really makes it hard to work with Affinity, because, they just don't work as good in it. Every time I work with the Affinity apps, I also realize that they require one or two steps more, or, it's just more complicated to understand than Photoshop.

I always find that people are a bit quick by the hand in saying that Adobe just "has the monopoly". Monopolies don't come over night, and they always come with a reason. If every professional could just use a tool you get for 28 € in sale instead (the cost of a one month artistic sub for the Adobe tools), then he would do it.
Like written, Photoshop is still industry standard and the "monopoly" argument was not from me! And yes, Photoshop still is "the best / most comfortable" software in that area, that's the reason, they can still do their subscritpion model. But here we're talking about NI and much more alternatives in the areas virtual instruments, sample instruments and so on.

And NI should better optimize their bundle options first ...
If NI does subscription, I'm pretty sure they will go on selling perpetual licenses as well. Anything else would be a bit strange, especially in retrospect on how Komplete always has been sold, especially with that attractive upgrade from former versions.

I'm pretty sure as well that they will go subscription at some point though. It seems like the whole industry is moving in that direction. Even Steinberg with their one paid upgrade every year is more or less doing it (yes, you don't have to buy, but, let's be honest, almost everyone does).
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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KVRian
686 posts since 19 Sep, 2007 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:50 am

chk071 wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:39 am
If NI does subscription, I'm pretty sure they will go on selling perpetual licenses as well. Anything else would be a bit strange, especially in retrospect on how Komplete always has been sold, especially with that attractive upgrade from former versions.

I'm pretty sure as well that they will go subscription at some point though. It seems like the whole industry is moving in that direction. Even Steinberg with their one paid upgrade every year is more or less doing it (yes, you don't have to buy, but, let's be honest, almost everyone does).
Komplete upgrades may be attractiv for existing users, but I for example would be a new customer. At the moment I'm having just 2 libraries for the Kontakt Player, one from a 3rd Party and one from NI I bought here in the forum for a good price. I also have some old single licenses of Absynth, FM8, Guitar Rig ... but on my last two systems I didn't install them anymore, because I don't need them. All the current NI Komplete bundles are based on their synth and FX plugins, so in every bundle you have to pay for them. But I don't need them and would be only interested in their orchestral and sample instruments. So, I have to look for alternatives or second hand single licenses .
Last edited by clipnotic on Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

KVRAF
27213 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:56 am

For me, the cheapest way to get into Komplete was getting a NI keyboard (I wanted to get the Komplete Kontrol M32 anyway), and then upgrade to full Komplete, when it was 50% off (I think it cost 199 €). Considering all the stuff which is in there, I consider that a pretty good deal. But, I can understand if you say that there is a lot of stuff in there which you don't need. Same for me, but, the stuff I use actually already makes it more than worth.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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KVRian
686 posts since 19 Sep, 2007 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:00 am

chk071 wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:56 am
For me, the cheapest way to get into Komplete was getting a NI keyboard (I wanted to get the Komplete Kontrol M32 anyway), and then upgrade to full Komplete, when it was 50% off (I think it cost 199 €). Considering all the stuff which is in there, I consider that a pretty good deal. But, I can understand if you say that there is a lot of stuff in there which you don't need. Same for me, but, the stuff I use actually already makes it more than worth.
That wouldn't help me, because I would have to upgrade to the Komplete Ultimate Collector's Edition, because only that bundle has the instruments I'm interested in.

KVRAF
27213 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:10 am

Buying single licenses would be your only option then, I guess.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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KVRian
686 posts since 19 Sep, 2007 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:16 am

chk071 wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:10 am
Buying single licenses would be your only option then, I guess.
Yes, and therefore NI loses a potential new customer! For me it's no problem, because the most NI products are really cheap to get here and also in other forums, but for NI it is bad!

KVRAF
27213 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:24 am

You can't please everyone though. They already offer a lot of varietey (5 different Komplete offers, several plugin packs, single purchases etc.).
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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KVRian
686 posts since 19 Sep, 2007 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:27 am

chk071 wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:24 am
You can't please everyone though. They already offer a lot of varietey (5 different Komplete offers, several plugin packs, single purchases etc.).
Of course they could please more potential customers, if they would also offer additional bundles instead of thinking about subscription crap!

KVRAF
27213 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:38 am

Ok, so, let's say they do a bundle, just for you, then. Then the next person comes, and complains that they don't have a bundle for his specific needs. Then they make a bundle for that specific person. Then the next person comes, and complains that they don't have a bundle for his specific needs.

See where this is heading?

Nobody uses EVERYTHING which is in the Komplete bundles. It's the common denominator. If you feel that it's not what you're after, by all means, don't buy it. And, if the single purchases are not worth it for you, again, don't buy them. I can only repeat myself, you can't please everyone. Tell me another company with such a vast amount of products, and so many bundles, and plugin and sample packs to offer.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

KVRer
19 posts since 4 Dec, 2004 from NY

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:48 am

IMO, Native Instruments actually is NOT in a great position to offer a subscription model at this time. I know this might sound surprising, because they undoubtedly have a couple of products which are currently indispensable, and a very large overall lineup of content.

But because NI doesn't have a true DAW, nor do they have an overwhelmingly superior lineup in an area with a high barrier to entry (like East West), they are kind of a "jack of all trades, master of none". I think an NI subscription would be comparable to Slate or Plugin Alliance, but slightly superior, and I haven't gone for either of those subscriptions personally.

The most essential NI products are Reaktor and Kontakt, IMO. Particularly Kontakt. But many large third party devs are fleeing Kontakt for their own in-house solutions, and I expect this trend to continue. Reaktor has never had great third-party support, and modulars like Cherry Audio have undercut it on price and offered a wider range of modules to boot. Reaktor's browser, even in V6, feels a bit antiquated.

If NI converts Maschine into a (good) proper DAW in version 3.0, and continues tightening its software-hardware integration, and gets into MPE ... then it might be a different story. Or if they manage to build a complete solution that runs in a web browser or something crazy like that, of course.

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KVRAF
5682 posts since 9 Dec, 2008 from Berlin

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:37 am

penfever wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:48 am
IMO, Native Instruments actually is NOT in a great position to offer a subscription model at this time. I know this might sound surprising, because they undoubtedly have a couple of products which are currently indispensable, and a very large overall lineup of content...
Good points.

IMO, Adobe went subscription exactly in a moment when I personally thought they lost their momentum. They stagnate mostly now but because of their hardcore subscription model people are bound to it and have to live with the glacial development.

NI is also reaching a point of saturation, there is only so much stuff people can use and just piling it on isn't gonna cut it in the long run, the perceived added value is less and less. In this round, Komplete 13 doesn't contain anything I want and the perceived value of the update is basically zero for me. Buying into the bigger packages isn't attractive, because of all of the fluff I'll never use anyway. Even Komplete I only bought since the update to Kontakt 6 would have been almost the same price, not because I really wanted it - I hardly use any of it.

And nowadays, good fresh synths do not necessarily come from the likes of NI, but often from small developers, a recent example is Vital, free if you want, or with several levels of added content, even a subscription is on offer, amazing GUI and workflow, great sound, a joy to use.
Or VCV.

NI on the other hand lost a lot of creditability with me for not updating the Absynth GUI and the other older synths or coming up with an actually good concept of how to deal with Reaktor or Kontakt patches and presets, it's all just clunky and outdated. The development of Massive X feels not exactly agile or clever either and it all leaves an impression of it being heavy, big and old somehow.
A behemoth.

Will be interesting to see where it goes and what those investors interests are.
I personally wouldn't buy any stock.

Cheers,

Tom
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KVRian
686 posts since 19 Sep, 2007 from Germany

Post Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:49 am

chk071 wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:38 am
Ok, so, let's say they do a bundle, just for you, then. Then the next person comes, and complains that they don't have a bundle for his specific needs. Then they make a bundle for that specific person. Then the next person comes, and complains that they don't have a bundle for his specific needs.

See where this is heading?

Nobody uses EVERYTHING which is in the Komplete bundles. It's the common denominator. If you feel that it's not what you're after, by all means, don't buy it. And, if the single purchases are not worth it for you, again, don't buy them. I can only repeat myself, you can't please everyone. Tell me another company with such a vast amount of products, and so many bundles, and plugin and sample packs to offer.
It's not a bundle just for me and they still offer several bundles for there mostly synth users, but none for users, which are mostly are interested in their other stuff.

And your "don't buy them arguments "are just nonsense, because here is a discussion about Komplete 13 and not about "what only you're thinking is necessary and what not", so you should simply stop your babbling! ;)

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