E-Phonic Invader 2 v1.0.8 next (WIN / OSX)

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
KVRian

Topic Starter

639 posts since 16 Sep, 2002 from Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:00 am

e-crooner wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:17 am
When I use any two osc's (including sub) at the same time, their phase seems to be locked and there is no oscillator beating, the sound is perfectly static and consistent.
The big difference with most other synths is that with Invader 2 you can 'tune' the main osc independent of the sub. So, by definition, it is not phase locked. The sub behaves more like a simplified 3rd oscillator. For example, in a Mini Moog you have the same phase drifting that causes the same behaviour.
e-crooner wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:17 am
I get the impression that Invader oscillators are never free-running, regardless of the restart button.
That's simply not the case. The oscillators are free running when the restart button is disabled.
e-crooner wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:17 am
Regarding unsyncing the oscillators. I think merely turning off restart should be what triggers the unsyncing.
Disabling the 'restart button' doesn't mean that the phases get out if sync instantly. It just stops restarting the oscillators on every note on event.
e-crooner wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:17 am
Also, does the restart button in osc 1 apply to all three oscillators? I am asking because I noticed that when I use only the sub and osc 2, turning the restart button in osc 1 on changes the sound, which is unexpected.
Yes it applies to all oscillators, but osc1 has a phase offset of half a period to make all oscillators combined sound better.

So, long story short. If you need the exact same phase behaviour for every note, enable the oscillator restart.

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GRRRRRRR!
11956 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:58 pm

e-crooner wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:17 am
For instance: when you load the synth and get the default sound, add the sub to max, play around and remember the sound. Now turn on the osc restart, play around and remember the sound. Now turn the osc restart off again and play. It sounds as if the osc restart is still on.
I think what you are after is random start phase. If you start two oscillators together and they are in tune, it will take a long time for them to start to sound out of phase. OTOH, if you detune them slightly, they will go out of phase quite quickly.

I used to have this problem with one of the early unison set-ups I used in SynthEdit. When I started playing, it would take a bar or two for the unison to start to sound properly thick and phasey. To get around it, I'd trigger a note at the start of a song with the instrument muted, just so that by the time I needed to hear it, it would be nicely out of phase. I quickly found a better way to set up unison to stop that happening.
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KVRian

Topic Starter

639 posts since 16 Sep, 2002 from Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Post Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:31 pm

Well, I think I understand the original issue that was raised.
It's that the sub and main osc can get out of sync because they can be tuned independently.
This can be annoying indeed. I'm currently investigating if I can re-sync the sub and main osc when they are not detuned. This will be different than the restart option, as it will keep the oscillators free running.

KVRer
1 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:01 am

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KVRer
25 posts since 25 Jun, 2021

Post Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:05 am

BONES wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:07 pm
steb_osc wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:40 am
It’s more a ‘nice to have’ feature query really. FM and ring-mod are different so I don’t think it’s a case of either-or.
It depends how you look at things. One of the advantages of cross-modulation is you can do metallic kinds of sounds and Ring Mod does that as well as FM. Using Hard Sync more subtly that usual can make for some FMish kind of stuff, too. It's all about results for me, not how you achieve them.
I agree. Your posts made me explore the ring mod and hard sync options further. It led to a full night on it. I'm a Nord Lead 2X fan and that was motivation behind my question. I've yet to find a synth that can do what that Nord FM dial can do. DiscoDSP Discovery Pro doesn't quite hit the spot. Viper gets closer, but not a match.

Invader sounds lovely. Tantalisingly close to my dream of a 'Lead 2X' vst! I will be spending a lot of time with Invader for the synth that it is. In hindsight, I now don't want to be the new poster that comes along saying "Invader? A great Synth.... BUT..." :) It is a great synth.

KVRAF
5424 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Post Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:12 am

steb_osc wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:05 am
I'm a Nord Lead 2X fan and that was motivation behind my question. I've yet to find a synth that can do what that Nord FM dial can do. DiscoDSP Discovery Pro doesn't quite hit the spot. Viper gets closer, but not a match.
These "ripping" psytrance FM leads :love:

Well, Viper is a Virus emu, not a Nord, and it does that "pos-tri FM" Virus thing really well, almost spot on. It seems that FM in the Nords sounds similar but somewhat harder, with a more aggressive tone. Having that sound in software would be awesome (and if Invader could do that I'd definitely try and most likely buy it)
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

https://soundcloud.com/recursion-loop/s ... travels-ep

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KVRAF
3258 posts since 22 Aug, 2019

Post Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:38 am

Here is an example of what I mean: I took the default patch, added osc 2, reduced the cutoff and I think that was all I did. Never turned on and off the osc restart thingy.

I recorded a few notes and exported it, see Test 1 file. I saved that patch, as if I liked it and wanted to reuse it in the future.

https://app.box.com/s/aqd6ntzjqfjhz3pquvqcxpzege5aiprr


Then I loaded another patch and then reloaded my new patch, exported it again, see Test 2 file. As you can hear it sounds very different. If I were a sound designer I would never know what my patches would sound like on the customer's side.

https://app.box.com/s/e81n3xzjmud3m03x2teo6mowlpy56e2a

KVRian

Topic Starter

639 posts since 16 Sep, 2002 from Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Post Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:11 am

e-crooner wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:38 am
Here is an example of what I mean: I took the default patch, added osc 2, reduced the cutoff and I think that was all I did. Never turned on and off the osc restart thingy.

I recorded a few notes and exported it, see Test 1 file. I saved that patch, as if I liked it and wanted to reuse it in the future.

https://app.box.com/s/aqd6ntzjqfjhz3pquvqcxpzege5aiprr

Then I loaded another patch and then reloaded my new patch, exported it again, see Test 2 file. As you can hear it sounds very different. If I were a sound designer I would never know what my patches would sound like on the customer's side.

https://app.box.com/s/e81n3xzjmud3m03x2teo6mowlpy56e2a
Thanks!

For now, when creating patches where the oscillators should be exactly in sync all the time. Just use the osc restart option and you won't have this problem.

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KVRAF
3258 posts since 22 Aug, 2019

Post Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:55 am

I guess what is at the bottom of the issue is that, unlike analog hardware and all my other softsynths, Invader's oscillators are perfect insofar as they don't seem to have any movement or drift in them when not using any detuning. Especially for free-running oscillators that is rather unusual.

KVRer
25 posts since 25 Jun, 2021

Post Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:10 am

I had some fun the other night seeing if Invader was capable of pulling off Moog basses. I uploaded the following blind face-off for a friend, and thought I’d post it here for fun.

Three vsts: Invader, Legend, and System 72.

The first set is with some chorus to add some width, the second set is raw.

Any guesses as to which is which? 1, 2, 3.

Any preference?

https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/4mwaqcBD7vfMQD8P9

KVRAF
2293 posts since 1 Sep, 2016

Post Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:25 am

Pretty hard to tell. I'm going with Legend, Invader and System 72.

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KVRAF
3258 posts since 22 Aug, 2019

Post Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:02 pm

The third one seems to have more bottom, or maybe it is just a bit louder?

KVRer
25 posts since 25 Jun, 2021

Post Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:17 pm

I’m a bit of a fan of comparisons, and so thanks for the feedback. The levels should be matched as I used MAGC, but I haven’t used a loudness meter to confirm. I’ll do that out of interest against the wav.

Any of them sounding more analog, or.. digital than the others? I think they’d all be pretty much indistinguishable in a mix.

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KVRAF
3258 posts since 22 Aug, 2019

Post Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:14 pm

Definitely, they are very close. Good to see that a 5-euro synth can rival a 100-euro synth :tu: And in the case of lush unison pads Invader probably wipes the floor with Legend :hihi:

KVRian

Topic Starter

639 posts since 16 Sep, 2002 from Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Post Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:12 pm

:tu:

By the way, I'm still working on the play modes and better phase syncing for the sub and main oscs.
It has been quite busy lately and I haven't been able to spend as much time on it as I would like.
So, updates will come but, just not as fast as I would like.

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