Win a Tone2 Complete Bundle ($999): Tone2 Nemesis2

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
KVRer
1 posts since 23 Dec, 2020

Post Thu May 27, 2021 3:43 am

This is my first post. I may write something wrong, and I'm sorry if I do.
I don't know if this will help you, but I made a diagram.
Image

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KVRAF
3427 posts since 22 Aug, 2019

Post Thu May 27, 2021 7:05 am

One can hardly expect Tone2 to spill its tech secrets here on this public board. When independent reviewers confirm the superior FM sound, why complain?

AnX
KVRAF
10163 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Post Thu May 27, 2021 7:37 am

e-crooner wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:05 am
One can hardly expect Tone2 to spill its tech secrets here on this public board. When independent reviewers confirm the superior FM sound, why complain?
nobody is asking for secrets, or debating the "superior" fm sound

it was a simple question: what is neofm?

it has been answered as best as he can, from what I can gather.

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KVRist
205 posts since 2 Nov, 2017

Post Thu May 27, 2021 7:47 am

AnX wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:37 am
e-crooner wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:05 am
One can hardly expect Tone2 to spill its tech secrets here on this public board. When independent reviewers confirm the superior FM sound, why complain?
nobody is asking for secrets, or debating the "superior" fm sound

it was a simple question: what is neofm?

it has been answered as best as he can, from what I can gather.
I'm with you on this. Simple question and it not sure it requires divulging trade secrets to answer ;)

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KVRian
1189 posts since 17 Jul, 2007 from Baghdad-Iq

Post Thu May 27, 2021 8:06 am

Something like Reface DX I would assume.
Yamaha enhanced the experience of using the daunting complicated FM synthesis on those old gears with limited display screens and tweaked the circuits, to become easy to use interface-based on-fly tweak surface with more organic warm sound, oversampled DCA, minimal harsh sonic artifacts & aliasing.
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KVRist
142 posts since 8 Jun, 2019

Post Thu May 27, 2021 8:19 am

jasonekratz wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:47 am
AnX wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:37 am
e-crooner wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:05 am
One can hardly expect Tone2 to spill its tech secrets here on this public board. When independent reviewers confirm the superior FM sound, why complain?
nobody is asking for secrets, or debating the "superior" fm sound

it was a simple question: what is neofm?

it has been answered as best as he can, from what I can gather.
I'm with you on this. Simple question and it not sure it requires divulging trade secrets to answer ;)
If it's linear FM, which seems likely, there's probably something extensive being done to eliminate aliasing. I can see how Markus would be reluctant to get into much detail. If he simply says, "it's linear FM with proprietary anti-aliasing", people will assume it's the same as other synths that do linear FM. He wants users to demo it instead, since the result could be quite different from Phase Plant, Fathom, Bazille, etc.

I edited my earlier post to reflect this too.

KVRist
127 posts since 17 May, 2010

Post Thu May 27, 2021 9:49 am

jasonekratz wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:47 am
AnX wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:37 am
e-crooner wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:05 am
One can hardly expect Tone2 to spill its tech secrets here on this public board. When independent reviewers confirm the superior FM sound, why complain?
nobody is asking for secrets, or debating the "superior" fm sound

it was a simple question: what is neofm?

it has been answered as best as he can, from what I can gather.
I'm with you on this. Simple question and it not sure it requires divulging trade secrets to answer ;)
This is probably the best explanation of NeoFM I could find...

"With NeoFM, users can take advantage of a much larger variety of waveforms rather than typical sine and triangle wave forms while faithfully producing FM synthesis. NeoFM is accomplished by having a Carrier oscillator and a Modulator oscillator.

In this case, the Modulator waveform is used to control the frequency of the Carrier waveform, resulting in simple to very complex sounds. Add a ton of other combinable synthesis types and these few features alone add a whole other dimension of flexibility to Nemesis."

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fmr
KVRAF
10542 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Thu May 27, 2021 10:33 am

minijetsdonttalk wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 9:49 am
"With NeoFM, users can take advantage of a much larger variety of waveforms rather than typical sine and triangle wave forms while faithfully producing FM synthesis. NeoFM is accomplished by having a Carrier oscillator and a Modulator oscillator.

In this case, the Modulator waveform is used to control the frequency of the Carrier waveform, resulting in simple to very complex sounds. Add a ton of other combinable synthesis types and these few features alone add a whole other dimension of flexibility to Nemesis."
I don't know where you did find this explanation, but it seems wrong or at least imprecise:

1. "NeoFM is accomplished by having a Carrier oscillator and a Modulator oscillator". yes, but that's also true of the "older" FM (which is actually PM). AND in the "older" FM, you even have more oscillators, hence more carriers and more modulators - six in the DX7.

2. "the Modulator waveform is used to control the frequency of the Carrier waveform". WRONG. If it was matter of simply "control" the frequency, we already had that with the LFO. But it a different kind of control. I wouldn't say it is used to "control" the frequency of the carrier. I'd say it is used to "modulate" the carrier through its own frequency, that way creating complex spectra. The complex spectrum is the real goal here. The base frequency of the carrier may change, in consequence, but that's not necessarily true, and usually NOT what we want (otherwise, the final sound would be out of tune, and we would need to use transpositions, which, BTW, is also true with PM).
Last edited by fmr on Thu May 27, 2021 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Fernando (FMR)

KVRist
127 posts since 17 May, 2010

Post Thu May 27, 2021 10:41 am


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KVRAF
3427 posts since 22 Aug, 2019

Post Thu May 27, 2021 10:53 am

2014?! How time flies... :?

KVRer
1 posts since 23 Oct, 2020

Post Fri May 28, 2021 2:50 pm

:o
Brilliant random button that's exciting extra , the unsion efx will be much used this synth has a lot more to offer !! aka jono :clap:

KVRAF
2428 posts since 30 Dec, 2014

Post Fri May 28, 2021 7:07 pm

Where is the demo ?
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KVRAF
6368 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Sat May 29, 2021 1:27 am

There is a lot of confusion between phase modulation and frequency modulation. To read up some Chowning could help btw... Of course Chowning (think DX 7) had a reason to call it frequency modulation because it is de facto FM. The result is the same, if you have a frequency linear modulation of the phase, you get the same result as a frequency linear modulation of the frequency of an oscillator. Its just a method way easier to implement in the digital domain. If you have a modular environment like Bitwigs Grid you can experiment with that yourself.
For example, if you modulate a sine wave with a phasor (mathematically correct sawtooth going from 0 to 1) the result will be again a sine wave! If the pitch of the phasor is the same as the pitch of the sine oscillator, there is no change at all in the sound. But if they differ, you get just a different frequency but it remains as a sine... Now if you have something different than a phasor, it would change that frequency within or while its running through its waveform, kind of a very fast varispeed, which results in a distorted waveform with more harmonics...
The confusion between "real" FM, which I would call the classic we know from analog synths, is the fact, that the frequency input of an oscillator changes the frequency according to the V/Oct! That is a heavy distortion compared to a linear control. That's why analog FM sounds so different and is almost not controllable to get harmonic sounds out of it. It would face the same aliasing problems as PM if you do that in a digital emulation btw...
Doing this in the digital domain opens up controls with exact calculations. The original Chowing FM allowed to have exact ratios of the frequencies, which will result in harmonic spectra. If you do "NEO" FM you can do that as well with the frequencies as with the modulation amount. Both is crucial for getting harmonic relations in the spectrum...

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KVRian

Topic Starter

1070 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Post Sat May 29, 2021 5:37 am

THE INTRANCER wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 7:07 pm
Where is the demo ?
https://www.tone2.com/download.html
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

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KVRAF
10266 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Post Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:38 am

Nemesis 2 is now out.
https://www.tone2.com/nemesis.html

Thanks Markus.
rsp
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