KVR Audio

Fraggle · Post by **Fraggle** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:33 am

Many , maybe most, $100+ synths come with an arp or sequencer. However 2 of my favorite synths do not (Serum and Phase Plant). Both of them rely on LFOs to modulate coarse pitch.

This works fine if I only want a bassline, but if I want a complex chord sequence that moves out of key, I must use a midi arp (Cthulhu or DAW arp).

Of course we cannot know (without asking them directly) why Kilohearts and Steve Duda chose to go this way, but damn, I would appreciate some suggestions. Are arps in synths very processor heavy? Is it some technical reason? or just that they only see arps as useful for basslines ?

Serum with Cthulhu built into it ? Cthulhu was already made, and Steve used a lot of the knowledge from ‘LFO tool’ to make the awesome Serum LFOs, so why not do the same with the Arp section of Cthulhu ?

As for Kilohearts, I can’t see why an arp cannot be another generator module in PP….

Insights and suggestions welcome.

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:47 am

I don't understand why anyone puts an arp or a sequencer into any plugin instrument, given that the thing you plug them into is a sequencer. They seem like the biggest waste of time ever. I've always assumed they do it because it allows preset designers to make some very cool one-finger patches for the factory bank but the first thing I do before I use any of those patches is turn the arp/sequencer off. I get why they put them in hardware synths but not in software.

Biome_Digital · Post by **Biome_Digital** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:54 am

Arps and sequencers are essential from a sound design view. They add a load more options for creating patches. Serum and Phase Plant really do need them and I expect phase Plant will get something soon.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:08 pm

Nevermind, what I wrote didn't really make sense.

zzz00m · Post by **zzz00m** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:27 pm

Simple solution. Get a synth with an on-board arpeggiator/sequencer.

Why limit yourself to two synths that do not have one? I get that you already have those synths and like them, but there's plenty of other good ones out there!

Teksonik · Post by **Teksonik** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:34 pm

I love using Arp/Seqs in plugins. I don't use other people's Seqs but I do like to make my own. I've enjoyed playing arpeggiators since I got my first one in a Roland Juno 60 a hundred years ago.

When I'm in sound design mode I'll create Seq patches for bass lines or melody runs etc and when I'm in composition mode I'll find those patches to be very useful. It's like having pre-built parts of a song.

An arpeggiator responds to the notes it is given so I frequently use those patches to add rhythmic note runs.

Sure you can use the Arp in your DAW or add external Arp plugins but then you could add external effects or an external filter or....Having everything contained inside a single patch is far more efficient for me than calling up a patch, loading an external Arp and setting it, loading external effects and setting them etc.

So yea I want all my synth plugins to have built in Arp/Seqs and the more complex the better.....

EDIT: Looks like Toneboosters gets it for their upcoming synth.....

Toneboosters 061021-1.png

e-crooner · Post by **e-crooner** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:43 pm

BONES wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:47 am I don't understand why anyone puts an arp or a sequencer into any plugin instrument, given that the thing you plug them into is a sequencer. They seem like the biggest waste of time ever. I've always assumed they do it because it allows preset designers to make some very cool one-finger patches for the factory bank but the first thing I do before I use any of those patches is turn the arp/sequencer off. I get why they put them in hardware synths but not in software.

I think it's just a lot faster and more fun to make arp sounds and sequences using an arp rather than the DAW's sequencer.

There were external sequencers in the 80's as well, yet some synth makers included arps in their synths.

I like the little sequence recorder/arp in Invader 2.

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:00 am

The difference in the 80s was that synths didn't run inside sequencers, so while you could run them with an external sequencer, you didn't have to. That is not the case with VSTi plugins. The sequencer has to be there so why duplicate the effort? Orion has an arpeggiator built into the piano roll, which you can render into notes if you want. You can even create your own arp patterns with a simple text file. I used to find that way more "fun" and useful than any on-board arp, although I stopped using it 15 or so years ago. I think DELIVERANCE, from our first album, is the only song I ever actually used it on.

I haven't even looked at the arp/seq in Invader. In fact, I've not even got as far as previewing the factory presets that use it. I'm too busy patching it to fit into our live set.

Biome_Digital wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:54 amArps and sequencers are essential from a sound design view. They add a load more options for creating patches.

Only for the factory bank. For actual end-users, people who make music, they are redundant.

Teksonik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:34 pmHaving everything contained inside a single patch is far more efficient for me than calling up a patch, loading an external Arp and setting it, loading external effects and setting them etc.

Why would you need to "load an external arp"? The plugin is sitting inside a sequencer, the piano roll is already there and it is every bit as accessible as any on-board arp. In fact, one of the biggest complaints people have about Uno Synth is that the sequencer patterns are locked to each patch, so it seems plenty of people don't like the idea of having it all contained within the patch. To be fair, it's probably more of an issue for a hardware synth, where it may be the only sequencer available.

Do you know where it really makes the most sense to have an arp/seq? Within your MIDI controller, like KeyStep has. It's quick and easy and you can use it on absolutely any instrument you own. In KeyStep's case you can create your own patterns, store them on your computer an call them up in realtime, mid-performance if you need to. I've often thought that could be handy on stage but I've never bothered to delve into it properly to find out.

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:06 am

They keep taking away player control to make programming easier. that being said, I never use a sequencer, but I do like arps.

Teksonik · Post by **Teksonik** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:25 am

BONES wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:00 am Do you know where it really makes the most sense to have an arp/seq?

Yes. In every VSTi because I like them for the reasons described above.

My Akai MPK261 has a very capable built in Arp but I never use it because I prefer the Arp patterns to be burned into the synth's patches.

I also think some people confuse Arpeggiators and Sequencers. Two different things.

I use Arp/Seqs built into synth plugins every day and have created hundreds of such patches. Every project I create uses at least a few of those patches.

Whether other people like or use built in Arp/Seqs I could not possibly care less....to each his own.

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:32 am

"I like them" is hardly a reason. I like caramel but I don't expect to find any in my plugins.

psynical · Post by **psynical** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:37 am

I'd rather just have a separate arp/seq which does everything I need and want it to do instead of depending on some random synth to do exactly the same thing.

Teksonik · Post by **Teksonik** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:04 pm

BONES wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:32 am "I like them" is hardly a reason. I like caramel but I don't expect to find any in my plugins.

Liking a feature is the only reason to want it in a plugin. Some people like microtuning in their synths and although I have no use for it I am capable of understanding the fact that they do and let them use their feature in peace.

Whether or not you like something that has nothing to do with synthesis is totally irrelevant.

Teksonik · Post by **Teksonik** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:13 pm

psynical wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:37 am I'd rather just have a separate arp/seq which does everything I need and want it to do instead of depending on some random synth to do exactly the same thing.

And I'd rather have that feature included in the synth instead of depending on some random external plugin to do exactly the same thing. You are able to ignore built in Arp/Seqs just like I am able to ignore microtuning capabilities in a synth.

Look at it this way....if a synth has a built in Arp/Seq you can use it or use "a separate arp/seq which does everything you need".

Two workflows.

If a synth doesn't have a built in Arp/Seq then you're forced to load up an external option every time.

One workflow.

More options = more ways of getting things done= more happy campers. Everyone makes different music, everyone has their own workflow, so again to each his own.

RasmusV · Post by **RasmusV** » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:24 pm

I like having an ARP/SEQ in the actual VST, and one reason being it's easier to use it as a sound design tool, especially for more ambient patches. For example, using the sequencer in Pigments and making full use of the randomization options to create unpredictable sounds. Just gives me more options, and as noted, you can always use an external plugin as well (or together with it!).

Arps in Synths