An Invitation to Soundpaint

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BenfordLaw wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:08 pm
Ploki wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:41 pm it's funny that it morphs "intelligently" but sample data is f**king huge. What's the point?
I was thinking the same thing after downloading the free piano. Yes, it loads really quickly, but why is it 8GB in size if it's somehow doing something special and 'rendering' the sample data from (presumably) smaller amounts of data than you would normally use to play back a sample?
If you'd care to look at my post a few posts up you might be able to understand why the size of the downloads is the-size-of-the-downloads. It isn't just audio data; I suspect there's a great deal of spectral analysis contained in the files which are used to aid the spectral morphing technology (including velocity & pitch mapping, and the MORPH slider).

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What is spectral analysis data? I’d think that it shouldn’t take as much space as audio, as per your analysis it appears as it takes MORE space than audio.
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Because you don't understand what it is. Simple. You think, something and it is wrong.

Spectral analysis data consists of information for thousands of frequencies and their amplitude and phase response, for each tiny bit of time used in the analysis process, sometimes as small as 512 samples but usually in the 1024-2048 sample range. Even for that larger window size there will be (44,100 / 2048 = ~21) is 21 tables of thousands of frequencies and their amp/phz response.

Believe me, spectral data can be large and unwieldy.

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I exported spectral data in max, while it can be large it can also be very efficiently compressed.
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Well perhaps you'd like to join the SP team and advise them on how to write a better spectral data management system. Have you tried to read the data from your 'efficiently compressed' file at a speed needed to resynthesise the sound in real-time?

I'm going to guess not.

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There’s a lot of guessing here, but the piano doesn’t sound anywhere near as live as i.e pianoteq, and not as real as some other (smaller) libs. So i’m not really sure yet where this engine shines
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BenfordLaw wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:19 pm
hebex wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:43 am Sorry, I´m not impressed by the Jupiter at all, the so called "ultra deep" UDS version.

There are only presets in this VST that you mangle with the Soundpaint sample engine. So this is not really a Jupiter emulation, like Softubes Juno emulation, for example -- just to be clear, as the hype is not too clear about this, IMO. To me this does not matter, as long as the sound and feel of the presets are what to be expected.

Well, playing it I expected the Soundpaint Jupiter preset to feel alive, in the same way that for example my Sequential P10 (2020 version) reacts under my fingers. The P10 feels like an instrument. It does not feel flat.

...

Note: SP may be on to something and maybe it will deliver a better product in the future, I don´t know. But I feel I´m entitled to say my honest, rather critical, view, for other customers to know, since I actually bought and played it and the hype did not live up to my expectations.
I'm sorry that you actually bought the Juniper 8, can you tell us how many presets it has? Can you tell us how much disc space each preset takes up?

I really don't see any point in producing sample libraries of synths. It is never going to be as good as an actual synth. Sample libraries are for real instruments that a synth just can't emulate - violins, etc.
A quick count made it to about 230 presets. A bit annoying that the SP website can´t say that, is it not? I would have liked to know that before purchase. It may sound a lot, but it is not. As it is not an emulation, you need a lot more presets to get a feeling for what the Jupiter really can do.

How much disc space each preset takes up I don´t know, but the library itself takes up, as you probably gathered, about 85 gig. There is probably the explanation to the limited amount of presets. But where do all the gigs go? I can´t hear that it really makes a lot of difference when playing the Jupiter, compared to other flat sample libraries.

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CinningBao wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:40 pm Well perhaps you'd like to join the SP team and advise them on how to write a better spectral data management system. Have you tried to read the data from your 'efficiently compressed' file at a speed needed to resynthesise the sound in real-time?

I'm going to guess not.
this is why people tend to use other forms of signal decomposition. There is no end of expertise in that area. I think they would be crazy to be using FFTs as a basic data structure

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Ploki wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:27 pm What is spectral analysis data? I’d think that it shouldn’t take as much space as audio, as per your analysis it appears as it takes MORE space than audio.
because, assuming this is the case, it doesn’t replace the time-domain samples. it’s just used as the term suggests, for analysis. I’d take a stab at them either pre-computing a cepstrum or some set of wavelet coefficients to avoid having to do it in real time when doing morphing.

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hebex wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:59 pm A quick count made it to about 230 presets. A bit annoying that the SP website can´t say that, is it not? I would have liked to know that before purchase. It may sound a lot, but it is not. As it is not an emulation, you need a lot more presets to get a feeling for what the Jupiter really can do.

How much disc space each preset takes up I don´t know, but the library itself takes up, as you probably gathered, about 85 gig. There is probably the explanation to the limited amount of presets. But where do all the gigs go? I can´t hear that it really makes a lot of difference when playing the Jupiter, compared to other flat sample libraries.
One of the main features of SP are the Parts as opposed to the pre-sets.
So you can morph between different parts and use up to 4 in creating your own patches.

The thing with pre-sets is that you almost always get some people saying there aren't enough and others saying that there are too many.
You can't please everyone!

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Sounds very mixed and unimpressive so far what i read here. Guess it is more a sample player hyped with marketing videos.
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hebex wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:59 pm A quick count made it to about 230 presets. A bit annoying that the SP website can´t say that, is it not? I would have liked to know that before purchase. It may sound a lot, but it is not. As it is not an emulation, you need a lot more presets to get a feeling for what the Jupiter really can do.

How much disc space each preset takes up I don´t know, but the library itself takes up, as you probably gathered, about 85 gig. There is probably the explanation to the limited amount of presets. But where do all the gigs go? I can´t hear that it really makes a lot of difference when playing the Jupiter, compared to other flat sample libraries.
I can see why they didn't actually tell prospective customers how FEW presets it has! 230 presets! For 85GB of disc space!

I really don't see what problem Soundpaint is trying to fix. It hasn't got scripting like Kontakt, so can't do ultra realistic orchestral instruments, presumably. It can 'morph' two to four sounds somehow, but I must have missed any examples of this in the videos, where it actually did something new that hasn't been heard before. It's supposed to be 'rendering' the sounds, rather than just playing back samples, but the libraries are huge! Has there ever been a synth library for Kontakt that took up 85GB and yet had only 230 presets? It's utterly ridiculous. Why would anybody buy Juniper 8 after finding this out? Even if it were £10, the space it takes up on my hard drive would mean it just wasn't worth buying. ALL of my synth VSTs with all of their presets take up maybe 2GB, and I must have ten or twenty thousand presets between them. WTF?

Can you make new sounds from the 230 presets? If you morph two does it come up with a totally new sound, rather than just the two playing together? As I only have the free piano it's not really easy to get two totally different sounds and morph them.

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agharta wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:27 pm
One of the main features of SP are the Parts as opposed to the pre-sets.
So you can morph between different parts and use up to 4 in creating your own patches.

The thing with pre-sets is that you almost always get some people saying there aren't enough and others saying that there are too many.
You can't please everyone!
I don't think many people are going to say that 230 presets is too many for an 85GB library! I haven't seen anybody complaining about too many presets with anything anyway. Look at Rob Papen's synths, some of them come with 2,000 or more presets, and that's a good selling point (at least, it is to me, I'm sure others agree.)

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agharta wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:27 pm
One of the main features of SP are the Parts as opposed to the pre-sets.
So you can morph between different parts and use up to 4 in creating your own patches.
This ^^^
Windows 10 and too many plugins

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I mean… morphing is cool but not 85gb jupiter library cool.
(I have it btw.)
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