Binary Finary - 1998 breathing pluck sound?

How to make that sound...
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269 posts since 4 Dec, 2019

Post Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:56 am

9b0 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:03 am
I've been trying to do this in Vital for quite some time today. I'm facing difficulties with the formant filter - basically the same problems as in Serum, though less severe here. Everything else shouldn't be a problem but it's in the formant filter. The trouble seems to be that I can't shape this filter enough. It doesn't seem to allow me to really narrow down those frequency ranges I need to get so that I could get the kind of control over the sound as you can get it with your 3 spearate bandpass filter modules.

Can you tell me the exact frequency ranges that you set your 3 bandpass filters to? This is the essential part to the sound I think.

The results I get basically always still sound too much like a saw wave because a saw is so rich in harmonics and parts of it always leak through the overall filter in Vital when they shouldn't or at least not to that extent. I believe that this is the challenge with this interesting kind of sound.
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9b0
KVRist
346 posts since 23 Sep, 2003 from Hungary

Post Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:36 pm

juno987654321 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:56 am
The results I get basically always still sound too much like a saw wave because a saw is so rich in harmonics and parts of it always leak through the overall filter in Vital when they shouldn't or at least not to that extent. I believe that this is the challenge with this interesting kind of sound.
I checked Vital. The formant filter is capable of many things, but it lacks keyboard tracking (the MIDI Note as a modulation source seems to be able to modulate the cutoff in +/- 24 semitones range only). Since I'm 99% sure, the original sound in Binary Finary is a sample (this kind of choir sound was present in all the romplers and samplers back in the days), all the main parameters of the sound should move with the played note. Usually, formats are based on anatomy, and that does not change depending on the tone the human sings, so formants should be static by default, they should not move with the pitch. The way it is implemented in Vital is basically correct, but this way you can't synthesize old-school trance choir plucks.

I was playing around with Vital for a bit and found that the 'Vital Sine' wavetables suitable for this job since they pretty much mimic formants. I think I've succeeded with something acceptable.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eamr0o0d5w6b7 ... vital?dl=0

Not exactly the same, but it's a trance-choir pluck for sure. I hope, this helps, and have fun with it!
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Post Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:32 pm

9b0 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:36 pm

I checked Vital. The formant filter is capable of many things, but it lacks keyboard tracking (the MIDI Note as a modulation source seems to be able to modulate the cutoff in +/- 24 semitones range only).

[...] formants should be static by default, they should not move with the pitch. The way it is implemented in Vital is basically correct, but this way you can't synthesize old-school trance choir plucks.

I was playing around with Vital for a bit and found that the 'Vital Sine' wavetables suitable for this job since they pretty much mimic formants. I think I've succeeded with something acceptable.
Thank you for your commitment on behalf of everyone interested in that great sound!
I have often wished that there should be more such people who are so committed in developing their skills in the art of sound design on this platform, but unfortunately we only seem to be a very chosen few still. This may be due to the fact that most people think that what they call "working" is something that needs to always be triggered by something of material value while they miss the point that the inner development is much more important in life, especially in a time that appears to me in dire need of a contrast to what has become so normal, i. e. money controlling each and every little thought and action of the vast majority of people. To me this has always been rather funny...

Anyways, I understand that you are into modular synths and I will also try to discover this at a later time because I can already sense the many advantages of that on my journey towards becoming able to express myself in music. You have shown me a good example with the 3 bandpass filters and the many modules that you could add freely as you choose. Notice that when students study art, they always start with a process they call the "imitatio" in the first part of their studies. It's where I am at in sound design, so I am still a beginner. That is also the reason why many things like FM or modular synthesis are completely new to me. I am only starting to learn how to do my first steps in subtractive synthesis but I enjoy it very much.

Your idea with the wavetable is a very interesting one and I will have a look at this next. However, because you haven't used Vital much you may have overlooked a certain fact, i. e. that Vital actually does have a key tracking function built into it, at least I believe so. If you check this again: in the filter section you can choose 2 types of formant filters and there is a knob labelled as "key trk" which even allows you to adjust the very amount of keytracking to be applied.

So do I understand you right that you think in most cases keytracking will not be necessary but in this particular sound it nevertheless is because it is a sound that changes in pitch whereas formants usually (with the human voice) do not change in pitch???
That is also very interesting knowledge to be remembered in my future endeavors in designing some more sounds!

Do you think that with the keytracking function it might then nevertheless be possible to recreate the sound - even without the use of a wavetable?

I will try to recreate the sound in this fashion as well for some more time and keep going, using the very rudimentary skills I could gain so far.
If you like you could also try this in parrallel, but you have already contributed fairly much to this so thank you again!
Nothing can be better than liberty and free time to spend as you choose. Let's give those modern slaveholders the bum's rush!

KVRist
60 posts since 9 Nov, 2019

Post Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:43 pm

Yeah this sound was used in many tracks in the late 90s and early 2000s. I am also interested if can be recreate it.

Kai Tracid - Too many times. Best heard at 2:55, then it's in the background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg4cK2C8dBs

Kai Tracid - Life Is Too Short. Best heard at 2:47
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNZUB0SmE88

Trinity - Into The Blue (L.X. Apollo Mix). Best heard at 1:00 and throughout
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsW2nNLia5g

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9b0
KVRist
346 posts since 23 Sep, 2003 from Hungary

Post Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:57 pm

juno987654321 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:32 pm
Your idea with the wavetable is a very interesting one and I will have a look at this next. However, because you haven't used Vital much you may have overlooked a certain fact, i. e. that Vital actually does have a key tracking function built into it, at least I believe so. If you check this again: in the filter section you can choose 2 types of formant filters and there is a knob labelled as "key trk" which even allows you to adjust the very amount of keytracking to be applied.
The formant filters have no key track, they have a knob labeled spread instead. I was trying to mimic KBD by modulating the cutoff frequency with the MIDI note pitch, but it was allowing only modulation of +/- 24 semitones, wich is not sufficient (should have been the 100% range).
juno987654321 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:32 pm
So do I understand you right that you think in most cases keytracking will not be necessary but in this particular sound it nevertheless is because it is a sound that changes in pitch whereas formants usually (with the human voice) do not change in pitch???
That is also very interesting knowledge to be remembered in my future endeavors in designing some more sounds!
Yes, it's like this. KBD is nice in many cases, but for realistic formant filtering, it's not required.
juno987654321 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:32 pm
Do you think that with the key-tracking function it might then nevertheless be possible to recreate the sound - even without the use of a wavetable?
I don't think so. I was not able to set up the formats for one single pitch in a way I was able by using 3 filters with independent frequency, resonance, and gain control. I was trying to set up 3 different filters, by making use of F1 and F2, and the 3rd filter available in the effects section, but the latter one is monophonic and caused clicks while playing (because of the KBD). I was not able to shape the white noise the way I wanted to, all the noises available are removing high frequencies instead of removing lows.

I know, using wavetables is kind of a cheat in this case, because it's basically sampling, but this option gives lots of possibilities for modulation and altering the sound, so it should be still able to do a lot more than just having a simple 'choir ahh' sample.
juno987654321 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:32 pm
I will try to recreate the sound in this fashion as well for some more time and keep going, using the very rudimentary skills I could gain so far.
If you like you could also try this in parrallel, but you have already contributed fairly much to this so thank you again!
I'm happy if I helped! I think it does not matter how someone produces music or makes his sounds until the music is right and the process is fun. Nowadays I'm not using samples at all, but that's just for me, it's really just a creative challenge that forces me to solve things a different way.
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Post Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:06 pm

9b0 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:57 pm
The formant filters have no key track, they have a knob labeled spread instead.
Yes, you are so right. The knob changed as I selected the formant filters.


juno987654321 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:32 pm
Do you think that with the key-tracking function it might then nevertheless be possible to recreate the sound - even without the use of a wavetable?
9b0 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:57 pm
I don't think so. I was not able to set up the formats for one single pitch in a way I was able by using 3 filters with independent frequency, resonance, and gain control. I was trying to set up 3 different filters, by making use of F1 and F2, and the 3rd filter available in the effects section, but the latter one is monophonic and caused clicks while playing (because of the KBD). I was not able to shape the white noise the way I wanted to, all the noises available are removing high frequencies instead of removing lows.
Those were some of the difficulties I experienced as well. I used the pitch function for the white noise to get to the ballpark, but for the formant filter I almost despaired though I found one setting that got me somewhere close at least. But then the sound was low pitched again and so I used the formant transpose function to compensate for it. But then again the sound got too robotic/synthetic again and so on. I'm glad that you tell me it is in the limitations of the program. I simply COULDN'T have made it. You saved me from some more rather vain attempts.

9b0 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:57 pm
I know, using wavetables is kind of a cheat in this case, because it's basically sampling, but this option gives lots of possibilities for modulation and altering the sound, so it should be still able to do a lot more than just having a simple 'choir ahh' sample.
[...]
Nowadays I'm not using samples at all, but that's just for me, it's really just a creative challenge that forces me to solve things a different way.
Yes, exactly! I couldn't have said this any better. It's in the challenge and the fun to develop further. And I like the idea of going to the limits of what can be done "from scratch" without using any samples at all. This is the thing that I think will keep us moving in some real sound design. Not taking the most convenient ways but learning how to deal with sounds in the most sovereign ways and finding out about the secrets that really structure the building blocks of music. As time moves on you approach the ability to have maximal sovereignity over your own music without having to rely on a trillion of presets, samples, commercial products, etc. With that being said, music will nevertheless never lose its magic and always have this rest of impenetrability to it. So do many of the more wonderful phenomena this world has to offer to the more open and noble mind.
Nothing can be better than liberty and free time to spend as you choose. Let's give those modern slaveholders the bum's rush!

KVRer

Topic Starter

18 posts since 4 Apr, 2021

Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:30 am

I found in FL Studio's FLEX sound called "Choir Aahs2" (inside General Midi Library).
It is maybe from a real vocal sample originally, but is sounds quite close to he Binary Finary's sound (still not quite same/something is missing).

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Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:03 am

That's right. You will find thousands of samples that sound exactly the same easily, but that has nothing to do with sound design whatsoever. You could easily sample it yourself. Just cut out a snippet from the original and put it in a randomly chosen sampler...
Nothing can be better than liberty and free time to spend as you choose. Let's give those modern slaveholders the bum's rush!

KVRian
1057 posts since 3 Nov, 2010

Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:16 am

OK I synthesised one in Vital but....
I think you're far better of getting a sample for it.
You could play with it way more to get something better but apart from getting a wavetable or some other funky options I'd much prefer a sample.
https://vimeo.com/535310978
Preset
Vox - Ah-ish type sound.zip
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CHOOSX Remakes on my Youtube Channel

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Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:37 am

Hey Choos! Welcome back! I knew you would also give it a try here! It's a nice challenge and it's not important to get the exact sound but the aim is to approach it as good as we can by the means provided for some real sound design. :wink:

I will keep trying this in Serum or other synths that allow for that key tracking on the formant filters. Now let me check what you got there on your take in Vital!
Nothing can be better than liberty and free time to spend as you choose. Let's give those modern slaveholders the bum's rush!

h66
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70 posts since 17 Nov, 2012

Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:22 pm

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:
Last edited by h66 on Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

h66
KVRist
70 posts since 17 Nov, 2012

Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:22 pm

Bartone wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:30 am
I found in FL Studio's FLEX sound called "Choir Aahs2" (inside General Midi Library).
It is maybe from a real vocal sample originally, but is sounds quite close to he Binary Finary's sound (still not quite same/something is missing).
near by :wink: some eq, short release
But Nexus has it :wink:

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Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:35 pm

CHOOS wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:16 am
I think it sounds like ...
Hahaha! Why are you depreciating your creation? :hihi: Here's my honest feedback:
As always I like your creative approaches in Vital and there's almost always something new to be learned from it. This time you found a "sneaky" way, if I may say so, to go around the formant filters problem and use keytracking nevertheless by creating a sine wave that kind of approaches the original sound. This adds quite a new and interesting approach to it again though I must qualify this by stating that the sine wave feels a bit like cheating/sampling again because after all it's not broken down to its basic elements and thus resembles the wavetable approach in a way! You know very well what I mean. :hihi:

However, using Vital you really have to become creative and find ways how you might still approach that sound with the poor tools that Vital can offer for such a sound. I like your approach to use white noise + pitching it as far up as you can go, too. And then you boosted the high end and applied a plucky filter movement for its decay. That's definately the way to go and I was trying to go in the same direction for the noise aspect of the sound. A HP filter that is only applied to the noise might be an alternative as well but we may quickly run out of filters in Vital, especially if we use the formant filters.

I currently believe that we might have to even use the formant filter twice in Vital to get a decent result which aggravates the "running out of filters problem" even more and still the keytracking problem couldn't be solved. So you'd probably have to recreate the sound for each note individually and then layer many tracks together if you were to insist on recreating the melody IN VITAL to make the impossible come true as you would for a kind of creative competition...
However, I am now convinced that Vital does not provide us with the right tools for it and it would be very painstaking to still go on with this in Vital. So, from a sound designer's perspective this may really qualify our evaluations towards what Vital can actually do. It just always depends on the kind of sounds we want to recreate...

Still, as we could see, the sound CAN in principle be recreated in synths, e. g. in modular synths and maybe also in Serum or other synths. It might take some time to figure out how much keytracking should be applied to the formant filters to keep the notes constant in producing higher quality sounds and also to figure out how exponentially or algorithmically the keytracking curve should be shaped. I fear that a linear kind of keytracking might just not be enough and Serum e. g. offers the possibilities to do the keytracking in more complex ways but it cannot be done in a few minutes. Hence, for reasons of convenience, I might still go with the suggestion to use a sample, for reasons of my ambitions in sound design I must nevertheless reject this suggestion. I might try to push this further this for the sheer reason of practice, trying to make the impossible come true... Consider it an intellectual challenge, just like a math problem that needs to be solved, even though this may seem crazy to some... :D

I knew that someone would say that Nexus has the preset. I am sure without looking that this is true but you can also download it for free as with almost any samples...
Nothing can be better than liberty and free time to spend as you choose. Let's give those modern slaveholders the bum's rush!

AnX
KVRAF
9214 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:39 pm

I heard it was a sample, apparently someone recorded John Digweed cracking one off, and that was a sample of his vinegar stroke

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Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:50 pm

hinson wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:43 pm
Kai Tracid - Life Is Too Short.
:love: Great song, great message!

Anx, this was something some recalcitrant kind of pupil could have said but it doesn't add to anything more mature.
Nothing can be better than liberty and free time to spend as you choose. Let's give those modern slaveholders the bum's rush!

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