Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
User avatar
Niowiad
KVRist
477 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:16 am

This is very cool for the mega-extended chords and transposition.
WTF are those symbols and letters though? :o

I have no elements to say how suited this could be for actual performance (now idea how solid it feels, how well it responds to velocity, etc) but I have few doubts this could be a great composition tool... thinking of piano reductions on steroids and easy transposition.
If you really manage to keep this at around $350 (as you said half of £530) and properly marketed, it could be very interesting
Last edited by Niowiad on Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
34 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:17 am

BertKoor wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:27 am
I don't guess, but am sure you're not doing yourself any favours here.
Maybe was more suitable as a PM (private message).
I am trying my best to make things possible. Anyone who would like to be a part of this is most welcome. It is a completely new (unknown for the majority) keyboard instrument.
Sarcasm is welcome as well (do not mind it at all), but be prepared for comebacks... Sancho Panza. :party:

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
34 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:23 am

Niowiad wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:16 am
This is very cool for the mega-extended chords and transposition.
WTF are those symbols and letters though? :o
That is only one of its features. Later will add more videos. Keep in mind that this is a one-man endeavour project (for the time being... as I work a regular job, shoot videos/audios and edit them, compose them on my own).
The symbols are the noteheads and the letters are the corresponding notenames. It is too early to explain them...
Last edited by Pashkuli on Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Niowiad
KVRist
477 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:26 am

Looking forward to further instruction videos then.
This is interesting stuff.

User avatar
BertKoor
KVRAF
11236 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:38 am

Pashkuli wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:17 am
It is a completely new (unknown for the majority) keyboard instrument.
New?? Hell no!! A 19th century invention it is, you said so yourself.

Unknown for most: yes indeed. For good reasons, mostly. For instance, try to get lessons in "PushKey" layout (sorry, this is how I memorize it). Free or paid, online or offline, it does not exist.

There are multiple names for it already. How would adding yet another name for the same thing help? Or are there trademarks to respect? The alien symbols and new note names... why?? Solving problems that do not exist in a field which is not your expertise.

Sorry to say you are not the new Leo Fender.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Image
My MusicCalc is back online!!

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
34 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:04 am

BertKoor wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:38 am
Pashkuli wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:17 am
It is a completely new (unknown for the majority) keyboard instrument.
New?? Hell no!! A 19th century invention it is, you said so yourself.
Try to get lessons in "PushKey" layout (sorry, this is how I memorize it). Free or paid, online or offline, it does not exist.
I have no idea what you are writing about. What is a "PushKey" and why are you suggesting something, you say doesn't exist? I was not talking about the layout, but the design of the instrument, the keyboard itself. It is completely new.

The two closest relatives are Janko and Dreschke keyboards, but Pashkuli surpasses them at least twofold. Because I solved their flaws with some basic understanding about shape and design in general.
persp01.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

JCJR
KVRAF
2735 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:15 am

My suggestions are intended to be constructive. Perhaps the fastest way to do good alpha testing and also get some preliminary "impressive" performance videos, is if you could find some world-class free-bass chromatic button accordion players to consult for you. Maybe some could be tempted for a price as low as a free keyboard and the ego hit of helping develop an instrument. Or maybe they would have to be paid more than that.

One should be prepared to take seriously criticisms from such sources and make product changes as seem reasonable. Otherwise if you hire them and then ignore any suggestions they might make, then it is wasted resources for all concerned.

That kind of player, so far as I know, is the closest to being able to adopt yer keyboard and show it in its best lights. Of course virtuoso demos don't say much about how easy to learn and play an instrument would be. Talented enough people can do virtuoso performances on the most difficult bass-ackwards stupid-designed instruments, and make it look easy in the process. But at least a few virtuoso demos would quelch nay-sayers who may claim "it is not possible at all".

The following example videos, I could no more attempt to emulate than I could attempt to duplicate a Van Halen guitar solo. But it at least demonstrates that a person insanely talented enough can play beautifully on just about any weird bass-ackwards machine. :)

I would also like to point out, though the CBA smaller keys have an even wider interval-reach than your keyboard, these virtuosos do not particularly exploit wide-interval chords. It is not particularly musically necessary. It is often commented that one reason Oscar Peterson was so awesome was his freakishly large hands and huge reach, but small-handed people also get-er-done purt well if they happen to have some talent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKiyfOg3AK4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixcYWnFPjx8

User avatar
Forgotten
KVRAF
3384 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:23 am

Pashkuli wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:36 am
A very sad story...
One great pianist and composer... damaging his own fingers.
I thought that was an apocryphal or unverified story? He definitely damaged his fingers, but I'm not sure that anyone really knows for sure what happened.

JCJR
KVRAF
2735 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:48 am

Yeah and its not like conventional piano is the only instrument that causes repetitive stress injuries. In fact, is there an instrument that DOES NOT cause repetitive stress injuries at least to some of its players? It is hard to say except statistically because some people abuse themselves and never get arthritis or tendonitis, wheras other people get arthritis or tendonitis spontaneously with no obvious lifestyle stress.

Shumann may have had hand problems even if he never played an instrument. My first wife was crippled from Rheumatoid arthritis in her 20's and she never even tried to play piano.

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
34 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:06 pm

JCJR,
you have shown the Bayan accordion or similar. I have spoken with the designer of the Kravtsov accordion... (not him on the photo), when I told him an year and a half ago how similar our designs are (if he could find any infringement to his). He corrected me that my design was completely different; similarities are only to the rounded edges of the keys.
Mine have two other distinctive features, that his don't.
Image
kravtsov.jpg
His design is somehow similar, yet completely different from mine; also the layout he uses is completely different (his has some of they keys merged into one for the layout to be the way it is).
Bayan and Kravtsov are button by origin (they are quite popular and have two distinctive layouts, depending on the construction). Nothing in common to Pashkuli. At all.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Pashkuli on Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

JCJR
KVRAF
2735 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:59 pm

Yes there are several different CBA note layout schemes. Just as with linnstrument the same square grid of buttons can have many different note layouts.

Another difference is the different "carpal tunnel wrist stresses" and fingering awkwardnesses that could happen even with exactly the same shape and size keys, depending on whether the instrument is played vertical like accordion or horizontal like piano. Something "easy to play" vertical is not necessarily "easy to play" horizontal or vice versa. Something easy on the left hand not necessarily easy on the right hand or vice versa.

Still, if you need expert early alpha testers likely to be able to flash on your keyboard with minimal study, then your best bet is probably expert freebass chromatic button accordion players. Even if your note layout differs from Bayan or C Griff or whatever. They already proved proficiency on "the general idea."

Where else do you turn for alpha testers? Random civilians who don't understand the concept and don't have "fast fingertip skills", who might hack on it for years and get no better than yourself playing the keyboard?

I mean sure you are the engineer but it's not a confidence builder that you completely understand this "easy to learn and play" keyboard yet you can't make impressive demos on it yet. If it is so easy then what's the problem? Time to call in help.

In fact if your keyboard doesn't allow software configuration to Bayan and C Griff among other possibilities then it could lose you customers.

It might turn out that lots of potential customers like your marshmallow keys but they decide they do not like your prescribed note scheme and would rather use something they like better.

So you could let the customers program their own note layouts just as Linnstrument does. That way if they like your keys then they don't also have to like your note layout or your reformulation of the last 500 years of music theory. ;)

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
34 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:54 pm

JCJR wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:59 pm
Where else do you turn for alpha testers? Random civilians who don't understand the concept and don't have "fast fingertip skills", who might hack on it for years and get no better than yourself playing the keyboard? Time to call in help.
So you could let the customers program their own note layouts just as Linnstrument does. That way if they like your keys then they don't also have to like your note layout or your reformulation of the last 500 years of music theory. ;)
I think the best approach is to test it first on me. I am a complete noob at playing keyboard instruments. If it works for me, I guess it will work for others as well.
The best help I can get is either from people who would like to invest in Pashkuli keyboard or who would like to improve it (hardware and software) as I am not skilful enough.
Certainly, keyboard players (with years of practice on standard keyboards or grids/buttons) would most likely advance playing Pashkuli ×10 faster than I will. Still looking for some students here in UK.
Changing the layouts would require more complex electronics and even mechanics and will make the keyboard at least ×3 times more expensive (£1500~1700). I do not think it would be beneficial in anyway, both for me and for the potential customers, players. It was not meant to be a grid instrument (although I could have made it that way). Chromatic layout 6×2 for now.
"Music theory" is totally different subject which is not that important (although I do not think there is such thing as Music "theory"). Music... nomenclature though is inconsistent, ambiguous and contradicting. It needs a reform. A radical one.

JCJR
KVRAF
2735 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:35 pm

Your earlier posted layout diagram was so blurry that I could not read it. Made even harder to guess because you used non-standard note names so it was a guessing game what the heck your Note K or Note R or whatever is supposed to be. :)

So I guessed if it is not minor third rows as with Bayan or C Griff CBA, then it is probably semitone offset whole tone rows.

So what th hell is chromatic 6x2? 6 chromatic horizontal rows each offset by a wholetone? That can't be right because I only count 5 rows.

Or does the 6 in your description indicate my guess of wholetone rows, ie row 1 = [C D E F# G# A#] and row 2 = [C# D# F G A B]?

User avatar
BertKoor
KVRAF
11236 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:53 pm

Changing layout (as in: which physical key generates which midi note nr) should be simple. If done in software instead of hardware...
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Image
My MusicCalc is back online!!

JCJR
KVRAF
2735 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Pashkuli Keyboard: first video demo teaser "Schumann's dream"

Post Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:11 pm

BertKoor wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:53 pm
Changing layout (as in: which physical key generates which midi note nr) should be simple. If done in software instead of hardware...
It may very well be hardware which MAY be cheaper in small prototype quantities. It is hard to say what is cheaper at what quantities because tech changes so quickly.

In the 1990:s a friend made a 4 row whole tone keyboard that one could take an ordinary midi keyboard, remove the white and black keytops, and then glue on replacement key tops so that the only expense was custom stainless steel injection molding tooling for the new key caps. The key levers and scanning contact board could be OEM from standard midi keyboard.

But even then at that time tooling costs just for the custom injection molds was frighteningly expensive for a lone home inventor. Maybe nowadays it could be cheaper..Dunno.

My friend's wholetone keynoard was beautifully shaped and looked great but unfortunately I was too stupid to get practical music out of it. Was a great idea but hurt my fingers trying to play it.

Maybe Mr Pashkuli's keyshapea are easier to finger. I am not smart enough to even guess except by hands on testing. And I am so untalemted on previous attempts playing whole tone or CBA layouts, I would be a horrible candidate alpha tester..

Without a "shared key" mechanical linkage married to an OEM two row rubber nipple scanner contact board-- To get software settability one would need a custom non-oem 5 row rubber nipple velocity sensing scanner board and custom multiplex scanner firmware to support all those extra key switches.

I suspect software configurability could increase the device's customer appeal but it would be expensive to either lay out new 5 row scanner board and write scanner firmware, or alternately pay somebody like Fatar to do it for you. Somebody like Fatar could do it a lot quicker because they already have the skills, but I bet the price would be crazy for a lone home inventor.

Return to “Hardware (Instruments and Effects)”