Roli Seaboard RISE

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
Ploki
KVRAF
1512 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:21 am

Pashkuli wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:25 pm
To be more specific and as a quick reference to Roli Seaboard and its feature we discuss in this topic:
When you slide across the bumpy surface - trigger a legato slide (short legato notes)
When you trigger a slide front or back flat areas, trigger either Pitch Bend Message (not correct with respect to the technique with the same name) or Portamento.
Now, the challenge to the developers is to see if they can implement it that way... because i think they can't, because it is a linear grid instrument.
Would be good to see a demo from Seaboard owners though. I sold mine long time ago.
To clarify this as well:
If you disable "GLIDE" dimension, gliding your finger across the surface will produce a legato stream of notes.
If you have "GLIDE" enabled to any degree (Because you can adjust its sensitivity), gliding your finger across will produce a SINGLE note with pitchbend data.

And yes it would indeed be possible for ROLI to implement pitchbend-like gliding on the bottom/top strips while having "legato like" stream in the middle, since its essentially a very cleverly mapped grid

himalaya
KVRAF
5178 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:45 am

Ploki wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:21 am


To clarify this as well:
If you disable "GLIDE" dimension, gliding your finger across the surface will produce a legato stream of notes.
If you have "GLIDE" enabled to any degree (Because you can adjust its sensitivity), gliding your finger across will produce a SINGLE note with pitchbend data.
Incorrect on what happens when you disable the GLIDE dimension. When you do that, you get a chromatic response, and gliding horizontally creates distinct note pitches, there is no legato anywhere in this instance.

Ploki wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:21 am
And yes it would indeed be possible for ROLI to implement pitchbend-like gliding on the bottom/top strips while having "legato like" stream in the middle, since its essentially a very cleverly mapped grid
Not sure what you mean here? It is possible to create pitch-bend gliding on the bottom and top ribbons, and create legato note transition when playing slurred notes. At the same time.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

Ploki
KVRAF
1512 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:50 am

himalaya wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:45 am
Ploki wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:21 am


To clarify this as well:
If you disable "GLIDE" dimension, gliding your finger across the surface will produce a legato stream of notes.
If you have "GLIDE" enabled to any degree (Because you can adjust its sensitivity), gliding your finger across will produce a SINGLE note with pitchbend data.
Incorrect on what happens when you disable the GLIDE dimension. When you do that, you get a chromatic response, and gliding horizontally creates distinct note pitches, there is no legato anywhere in this instance.

Ploki wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:21 am
And yes it would indeed be possible for ROLI to implement pitchbend-like gliding on the bottom/top strips while having "legato like" stream in the middle, since its essentially a very cleverly mapped grid
Not sure what you mean here? It is possible to create pitch-bend gliding on the bottom and top ribbons, and create legato note transition when playing slurred notes. At the same time.
yeah nevermind the second post at all.
on both accounts. too early for me.

it does happen that half-steps sometimes register as pitch bends, which i really really dislike.

himalaya
KVRAF
5178 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:55 am

Ploki wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:06 am
  • Press: MIDI Message: Channel Pressure. Effectively aftertouch, but ROLI uses channel pressure, because each note has its own channel anyway.
Correction: it's not aftertouch, but continuous-pressure. The two are very different.

Aftertouch - modulation of pressure after the initial note-on midi message. It's mostly very finicky to control, with a lot of keyboards and their scaling being very jerky, almost having an on/off action.

Continuous-pressure - modulation of pressure on the note-on, on the initial touch. The pressure level is scanned from that first note-on, and smoothly (this is crucial) controlled the deeper we press.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

himalaya
KVRAF
5178 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:12 am

Having said that about what continuous-pressure is, many presets for the Seaboard are tuned with an expression curve (envelope) that resembles the response of 'aftertouch'. That curve is edited from its default linear shape - where we get the purest continuous-pressure response - to a deep exponential shape, with a flat initial zone (the envelope is flat, therefore producing no modulation). This deep exponential shape mimics the aftertouch a little bit. The reason for this seemingly strange curve shape, and thereby limiting of how pressure reacts on a Seaboard, is to do with the need to balance continuous-pressure with velocity. Since both, the velocity and continuous-pressure act on the initial note-on, without somehow 'delaying' the onset of continuous-pressure, it may 'get in the way' of what happens on velocity. So the pressure expression curve is tuned on a per-preset basis to best match what velocity and pressure is doing.

This is one reason that certain sounds do not have a very smooth or deep pressure response. This is also a reason why users of other MPE controllers may be left thinking that the MPE presets created in Equator or Cypher, are not as expressive on the pressure dimension as they would wish. It's a question of balancing two dimensions on per-preset basis. Some presets have very deep and expressive pressure, others less so, for a reason.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
159 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:58 am

Because you send a Pitch Bend Message does not mean you are using a Pitch Bend technique.
I completely understand why for keyboardists this is a very difficult thing to comprehend.
That is just one of the reasons I've designed the Pashkuli Keyboard.

User avatar
ChamomileShark
KVRAF
1732 posts since 12 May, 2004 from Oxford, UK

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:18 am

Pashkuli wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:58 am
That is just one of the reasons I've designed the Pashkuli Keyboard.
That's great but your constant criticism of the Roli (do you have one?) combined with your promotion of your own designed keyboard could look like you are here as some kind of marketing campaign. If it is, as a tip, generally going after rival offerings and attacking potential customers generally doesn't work.
.......

Anyway onto hopefully more fertile ground - I've found that for some reason the MPE VSTs played on the Rise sound really clumsy. Other VSTs although not MPE, sound better. It sounds great with Spitfire audio libraries for example.

For me, Cypher and Strobe sound particularly off, it's either the velocity / press curves or the make up of the patches themselves. It's hard to explain but it sounds like a gorilla banging on a keyboard linked to 10 synths - it's just overpowering and a bit mushy. Equator, not so much of that effect.

I know some of the sound designers involved have done patches on other synths I own so I'm wondering if it is something inherent in the sound of Strobe and Cypher.

Be interested in if anyone has found similar.

In the meantime I'll look at trying to tweak the presets (I started going in a better direction when I turned down all but one oscillator). Also I have some tremor so I need to look at the press curves, both at the Roli and VST level.

himalaya
KVRAF
5178 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:25 am

Pashkuli wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:58 am
Because you send a Pitch Bend Message does not mean you are using a Pitch Bend technique.
I completely understand why for keyboardists this is a very difficult thing to comprehend.
That is just one of the reasons I've designed the Pashkuli Keyboard.
What do you mean by the "Pitch Bend technique". Is it the means of using a spring-loaded controller, like a pitch-mod wheel to modulate the pitch of a note? I'm guessing from your video that this is the case?
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

himalaya
KVRAF
5178 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:28 am

@ChamomileShark,
Can you provide names of the presets that you think are not working for you? I'd like to test it. Many thanks.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

Whywhy
KVRian
500 posts since 11 Aug, 2018

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:33 am

@Pashkuli :
I didn't try your Pashkuli keyboard, perhaps it's a really great controller, but please, stop hijacking the Roli Seaboard thread, let's discuss that into your keyboard thread.
I see you there!
Ps : Electric himalaya is one of the best expressive sound designer, with Edmund Eagan. They have years of experience and expertise. Listen to them, they know their subject!
Best
Nico.

User avatar
ChamomileShark
KVRAF
1732 posts since 12 May, 2004 from Oxford, UK

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:36 am

Himalaya, thanks for the offer but it's an overall impression - I was working on something yesterday and flipping through the Cypher lead presets and not finding anything that fit. That said, I tend to only find a minority of presets generally work for me in any VST - I prefer simple sounds (I came from an era of simple synth tones) and delicate ones at that.

I think I need to actually spend a bit of focussed time on this - including playing the same preset via a Nektar panorama. That may be enlightening and seperate the tone from the performance.

I think part of the problem lies in the press settings - as said I have a slight tremor and a light touch - I may find messing with the Roli settings will help.

If I find any presets that are a particular issue, I'll let you know.

But interested if others felt the same perhaps when they were first starting with the Seaboard.

himalaya
KVRAF
5178 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:03 am

ChamomileShark wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:36 am
I prefer simple sounds (I came from an era of simple synth tones) and delicate ones at that.
I also come from the era of simple synth sounds. :)
In fact, one of my all time favs is the Korg Mini700, that always sits next to me. It's such a simple synth, but so good sounding! This Korg was used a lot in the 70s by Vangelis and Kitaro. You will actually find some of my mini700 emulations in the Cypher2 factory set, although they are not MPE (adding 5D to these patches would destroy their authenticity). You need to select the 'Factory' filter tag (rather than the 'MPE' one). These are 1:1 emulations, as close as I could make Cypher sound like a real vintage Korg mini700. :D

Otherwise, here are my recommendation for the 'simpler', purer, patches from the MPE set:

LD Beautiful Pulse Lad
LD Beauty and the Synth
LD Duphonic Etherium Horn
LD Lush PWM Lead
LD Mellow Pulses
LD Mellow Saws
LD Panorama Lead
LD Vintage Mellosolo
LD Vintage Mini Power
LD Vintage Monophonium
LD Vintage Octaves

These are all pure in tone, smooth, very playable. Try them.

The only thing I would say when browsing MPE/5D presets, it is not advisable to browse presets in the traditional way, with a project playing, and with the user simply clicking the preset browser arrow 'next' button, to advance to the next preset....select, hear it being triggered by midi, click next, hear it being triggered by midi, click next...this does not work with 5D presets. We need to select the preset and play it for a moment, before making a call whether it is suitable or not. :)
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
159 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:15 am

There is no marketing campaign of any kind. I have built only two (the second one is still in working progress as I constantly improve suspension, some software outside the keyboard for sync data, etc.).
No high jacking, just wanted to give a visual example to what those different techniques are.
I had Seaboard 3 or actually 4 years ago.

himalaya
KVRAF
5178 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:22 am

It's ok. You can keep on posting, no issues, at least from me.
Our communication will be more meaningful if you could answer some of the questions asked in response to your ideas.

Eg:
What do you mean by the "Pitch Bend technique". Is it the means of using a spring-loaded controller, like a pitch-mod wheel to modulate the pitch of a note? I'm guessing from your video that this is the case?
or my earlier one:
himalaya wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:03 am
(and what is "Pitch Wheel rotation" ?)
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

Ploki
KVRAF
1512 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:52 am

himalaya wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:55 am
Ploki wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:06 am
  • Press: MIDI Message: Channel Pressure. Effectively aftertouch, but ROLI uses channel pressure, because each note has its own channel anyway.
Correction: it's not aftertouch, but continuous-pressure. The two are very different.

Aftertouch - modulation of pressure after the initial note-on midi message. It's mostly very finicky to control, with a lot of keyboards and their scaling being very jerky, almost having an on/off action.

Continuous-pressure - modulation of pressure on the note-on, on the initial touch. The pressure level is scanned from that first note-on, and smoothly (this is crucial) controlled the deeper we press.
Yeah I lack of coffee in the morning again. Logic uses "Aftertouch" and "Channel pressure" interchangeably, but they both refer to the same midi message :?

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