Roli Seaboard RISE

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pdxindy
KVRAF
16346 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:14 am

himalaya wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:51 am
Nice. Is the Moog One in anyway compatible with any MPE releated parameters? I did have a chance to play it briefly a few days ago, but haven’t seen the full spec.

I’ve tested the Seaboard Grand with Alesis Andromeda years ago. For poly-pressure it worked well.
Not likely to be there in 1.0... but it is on their to-do list for a firmware update.

Since it is 3 part multi-timbral... it should do 3 voice MPE already

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9556 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:26 pm

Kinh wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:15 pm
So what other sounds is seaboard suited to? From what I've seen on youtube (and there aren't many) it seems more suited to mono/lead patches and exotic lead instruments. I take it the controller settings like pressure can be assigned to any parameter like filter, is that right? If so have you had any encouraging results doing electronic music, especially polyphonic stuff?
All I really use it for are pad-style leads, notes held for a bar or four so I can mangle them with the controllers the Rise gives me. Rather than using an LFO or an envelope for modulation, you get something far more organic that can evolve however it needs to.

I've got a Rise 25 so it's all one-handed stuff, almost all just monophonic, so I don't really care about MPE nearly as much as I do about the "Five Dimensions of Touch" and how that works. Orion is never going to do MPE but I can still get all the expression I need from standard, single channel MIDI so I'm not too fussed.
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:39 am
(Having no dead travel space helps with consistent velocity striking, even at very low velocities, and also allows for more rapid key-ing on the same note), and makes every sound connect to the performer as it were it's own instrument.
Yes, those two things are particular stand-outs for me - consistent velocity, especially at low levels, and rapid playing of a single note.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

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9556 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:36 pm

himalaya wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:22 am
I think your phrase is extremely apt: "there is an effort to perfect mechanical music". The ideology behind MPE goes against that. Although, MPE controllers can also be used as glorified 'mega' faders, where one draws data with slide, glide, and press. This, however, would not be the right reason to get into MPE instruments.
You are talking about two different things here. A Roli Seaboard can be just as expressive in normal MIDI mode as it can in MPE mode. i.e. It's not MPE that allows for all that expressive playing, it's the "Five Dimensions of Touch", which is independent of MPE. I can use all five in normal, single channel MIDI mode as well as I can in MPE mode.

MPE merely allows you to apply all that expressive playing on a per note basis but velocity and polyphonic aftertouch can do the same thing. Realistically, it is putting a separate mod wheel and pitch bend on each note, which is really only handy in certain circumstances, several of which have been mentioned by others. If you are playing a monophonic lead or pad, MPE never enters the equation, no matter how expressively you are playing.
Videos and just talking about how 'good' these instruments are, is no good anymore.
I think that is generally true of product videos on YouTube these days. Everyone wants to be first, when they should be trying to give viewers the best information available, so you end up with 50 videos that only tell you what you already learned from the company's official video. I pretty much never bother with YouTube videos any more, they are just a waste of time and bandwidth.
I do have to say, playing a bass line on a normal synth feels very restrictive after years of playing such bass lines on a Seaboard...
That's interesting because it would never occur to me to play a bassline, that's what I have a sequencer for. And if I was just playing around looking for a bassline, I' be more likely to do it on the UNO, which doesn't even do velocity, than on the Seaboard. Once I've got something going, I'll manually enter the notes into the piano roll, I'd never bother trying to play it in. Using the piano roll gives me a different perspective on what I'm doing that I find indispensable in the overall process.
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:49 am
What the 'Rise 49' has given me is a renewed love for just playing/making music, just for the sake of it. I have totally relieved myself of the pressure of there being some kind of product to show for these 'efforts', although it's very likely that that will change at some point. For the moment, I'll just take it for the joy that it is :tu:
Again, I'm the opposite. We've written 12 songs this year already, plus we have another half-a-dozen in the pipeline. Whilst I do enjoy the relaxation of just playing, it's nowhere near enough to justify the investment in a Seaboard. But when we are being as productive as we are now, it becomes easy to justify any expense. To be fair, for most of the year I didn't touch the Seaboard but now that I am using it, it has sparked a second wave of renewed activity, which is why we have another six songs on the way. We've done the music part of all of them but I still need to write lyrics - they aren't songs until they have vocals.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

himalaya
KVRAF
5195 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:05 am

I use the term ‘MPE’ as a blanket statement or description, because it has become synonymous with these types of controllers. It’s easy for people to understand what we are talking about. You are right to say that there is another mode, it's the original mode which existed before MPE was added to the official MIDI spec as a new standard. Personally, I tend to use ‘5D’ to describe these controllers or the sounds they are capable of, but I do it internally with my colleagues, whereas in public, ‘MPE’ seems like an easy to understand term that is now widely used, accepted and understood.

Some further clarification is needed with the following:
I can use all five in normal, single channel MIDI mode as well as I can in MPE mode.
I think you’ve confused the the 'Multi Channel' mode (used to be called MPE-Off in the Roli Dashboard) and the ‘single channel’ mode here. In the ‘single channel’ mode you can’t get all five dimensions, because a single midi channel does not support polyphonic pitch-bend or SLIDE (poly CC74). So I think you meant the 'Multi Channel' mode that can be selected in the Roli Dashboard. This is the original mode that gives us these ‘Five Dimensions of Touch’.

So in fact the Seaboard RISE supports three separate modes:

1. Single Channel (and the new 'Piano' mode in the latest Dashboard).
This turns the Seaboard into a normal midi controller with no 5D capability. Fully chromatic keyspan (chromatic = once GLIDE is set to zero or once the Piano mode/preset is selected).

2. Multi Channel mode (used to be called MPE-Off)
This is the original mode that made 5D sounds possible.

3. MPE mode
This is the new midi standard. Multi-Polyphonic-Expression. All 5D controllers support it so it’s a nice and easy term to use and hopefully people will understand what it means.

Both number 2 and 3 create the same outcome: 5-Dimensional sounds. MPE is just a standardisation of this process.

Lastly, the term ‘Five Dimensions of Touch’ is not a mode as such. It is a description of the type of expression possible on a Seaboard. It applies to the MPE and the Multi Channel modes in equal terms. :)
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

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9556 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:18 pm

No, my caveat was that I was playing monophonically, so I can use strike, press, glide, slide and lift on a single channel. In my current workflow MPE Mode is "Off" on Equator, Dashboard it is set to "Single Channel" and the Rise itself is in "normal" mode (or whatever it's called when the power LED is white), yet I can still use all five controls.

I think it is important to make the distinction because most people seem to assume that if your host software doesn't support MPE, then a Seaboard is a waste of money but that's not the case at all. I wasted $400 on a new host application for no reason, for example, because I didn't know any better at the time.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

himalaya
KVRAF
5195 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:39 am

I found an old video of the Seaboard RISE on my HD, one that I made in May 2016 (just uploaded to YouTube today). I made this to show some friends how the RISE can be used fully with all the faders and the XY pad to transform the sound even more (in addition to the press, glide, slide, and lift dimensions). This is a totally impractical sound, a bit mad and silly in places, not for the songwriter amongst us, but it has its nice darker moments, which could fit a moody film cue very nicely:

https://youtu.be/0roMthwBlDE
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

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9556 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:44 pm

Cool.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
16346 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:08 pm

himalaya wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:05 am
I use the term ‘MPE’ as a blanket statement or description, because it has become synonymous with these types of controllers. It’s easy for people to understand what we are talking about. You are right to say that there is another mode, it's the original mode which existed before MPE was added to the official MIDI spec as a new standard. Personally, I tend to use ‘5D’ to describe these controllers or the sounds they are capable of, but I do it internally with my colleagues, whereas in public, ‘MPE’ seems like an easy to understand term that is now widely used, accepted and understood.
I think MPE works fine as a term because it describes the full capability of the instrument.

A guitar is also MPE... because each note can be played in multiple independent ways.

Seems needlessly complicated to have a separate term for the technique of bending one string on a guitar as compared to bending two.

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BassMasterK
KVRist
162 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Portland, OR

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:40 pm

I finally decided to upload some sfz instruments into Equator as was talked about a few pages back and was actually able to make it work. I am really hoping that ROLI will refine this ability to make it a bit more user friendly. If it were able to accept a slightly wider format of sfz compliant files it would open up huge sound capabilities. I added onto the thread on ROLI support asking for it but who knows. Since they took any mention of the capability out of the latest manuals most people don't even know you can do it.
For streaming and free music downloads visit http://kennethrobertsmusic.com/

Whywhy
KVRian
523 posts since 11 Aug, 2018

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:54 am

I dream for a new version of Equator :
A Cypher2 architecture, but in a digital version, with phase modulation and scan able wavetable, plus the sample player and the 5D curves of Equator .

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Niowiad
KVRian
566 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:21 pm

How's Equator (full version) compared to Cypher2 for designing patches, to be used with a Seaboard?
Still worth the purchase after Cypher's release?

I currently don't have a Seaboard so I can't really demo anything, that's why I'm asking.

Whywhy
KVRian
523 posts since 11 Aug, 2018

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:04 pm

The 2 are very different, Equator have 2 oscillator multisample player, 3 waves oscillators with a lot of different waves shapes and some phase modulation algorithms , a noise, 2 filters, 2 lfo's, 5 envelopes and a lot of 5d curves. Cypher2 and Equator have one thing in common: the high quality and usability of their presets and the perfect compatibility with 5D controllers.

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Niowiad
KVRian
566 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:49 am

Still interesting then, I'll have to check it out. Thanks

Keith99
KVRian
1257 posts since 15 Mar, 2007 from Yorkshire, England

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:43 am

ANyone tried out the new MPE support in Cubase 10 with the RISE?

himalaya
KVRAF
5195 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:43 am

Equator is quicker to understand and use. So, if you don't want to be bogged down with too many options, it's a superb choice. For 5D sound design, it is still the best option thanks to the 4 master expression curves for each dimension. This really gives a lot of flexibility and allows you to do cool tricks, like split the SLIDE so that the upwards and downwards movements do something else, or you can do a pseudo-ribbon splits as well.

You can mix samples with VA/wavetable oscillators (no scanning though) or FM very easily. So it can give instant results.
Each sample module has its own multi-mode filter (!) which can be then routed to the master two multi-mode filters or not. You can route samples with their own filters away from the master filters either to the effects or dry output. There is so much flexibility, in what is a relatively simple synthesis engine.

The good thing is, both synths use the same way of adding modulation:
select a modulation source and then add the modulation to any and every knob you see on the GUI. So once you know, one, you know both. Although, Cypher's modulation is much more elaborate and visually helpful.

Also, don't forget that there is also Strobe2, which is also MPE compatible in the same way as Cypher2. This gives yet another sound, and a way of interacting with the FXpansion audio engine. A very simple synth to use, but very powerful (especially with all those cool tricks available via TransMod, so as an example, the single master oscillator can be split in two!).
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

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