My SY77, is this real life or is this just fantasy?

[neueliteratur]

I've been using my SY77 for about 10 years now,

and I've always used it as MIDI controller (to control my virtual synths) and never as an instrument in itself.

Growing more and more tired of how poor and weak my freeware VSTs sound,

I connected my SY77 into the audiocard and made music with it for the first time.

Now my question is,

am I just fantasizing or is it scientifically justified that the overall sound recorded with the hardware SY77 (dating from 1989) seems unexplicably to be more solid and rich than the basic VSTs that come with Logic Pro (bought in 2015)?

I've never managed to jam with my Logic Pro instruments for more than 30 minutes because of the inherent weird weak quality that comes with them, but jamming with this old hardware that I'd always underestimated, time flew.

Is this just an illusion that comes from the prejudice that hardware must be somewhat more authentic and organic than software?

Enlighten me plz

Best regards,

[Ingonator]

I got a Yamaha Motif ES 7 workstation since beginning of 2005 (more than 12 years now) wheer the last years i mostly used it as a controller.

Now i played with the built-in sounds again whwer i also got big amount of 3rd party soundsets and samples and am again and/or still quite blown away from te sounds it could do.

While i have a lot of plugins and also a few other hardware synths the Motif still seems to be quite difficult to be fully replaced. The low end in the sound seems to as good or even better than with some real analog synths i had used (depending on which one i compare it to). Also the effects in the Motif seem to be at a quite outstanding quality, even compard to modern plugins.
The Motif ES has a quite flecible and great sounding multimode filter with up to 18 different modes (including multi modes with more than one filter in series).
As it includes a sampler with up to 512 MB RAM (and besides using an external drive you could also sample from, the audio input) you could load a bigger amount of custom samples.

BTW the Motif ES 7 could be expanded with plugin boards including a DX7 board that includes the full DX7 MKII synth engine (not just samples...). Just found one at EBay from a commercial seller.

[grabme]

I've been using my SY77 for about 10 years now,

and I've always used it as MIDI controller (to control my virtual synths) and never as an instrument in itself.

Growing more and more tired of how poor and weak my freeware VSTs sound,

I connected my SY77 into the audiocard and made music with it for the first time.

Now my question is,

am I just fantasizing or is it scientifically justified that the overall sound recorded with the hardware SY77 (dating from 1989) seems unexplicably to be more solid and rich than the basic VSTs that come with Logic Pro (bought in 2015)?

I've never managed to jam with my Logic Pro instruments for more than 30 minutes because of the inherent weird weak quality that comes with them, but jamming with this old hardware that I'd always underestimated, time flew.

Is this just an illusion that comes from the prejudice that hardware must be somewhat more authentic and organic than software?

Enlighten me plz

Best regards,

A lot of it is due to the presets. A lot of plugins have presets that dont sit well in a track that isn't EDM.

[4damind]

I own the big brother, the SY99, since 26 years. This synth has of course a special sound because of the combination of FM with AWM or samples.
I've used the SY99 also for complete productions without any computer or DAW. This was a bit problematic because of the limited polyphony.
For this mix with some of my old demos only the SY was used, without any computer only with the internal sequencer and the internal effects. I recorded it only later in the DAW and added a limiter on it.

SY99 Demo Mix 1992

There is without doubt a rich and often crisp sound not so easy to achieve with a plugin. The problem is IMO more that the programming of this synth is not so easy. I have used the SY the last years only as a keyboard controller and not for sound creation and later replaced them with a midi controller (I still own own the SY99 but the SY99 is no longer in my actual setup)

My good old SY

[fmr]

I also have an SY99 and a TG77. Although I would not agree that the virtual synths in Logic Pro X sound thin. It depends on which sound you are using, but having been in the beta testing team when the ES2 was developed, for example, and having programmed many sounds for it, several included in the original preset library I think it is a great synthesizer. The same can be said of Alchemy, and although the EXS 24 maybe considered too simple when compared with the major samplers nowadays, it is still a very competent sampler.

Maybe you should check about you hardware. Many times people complain about the software, forgetting that the responsible for the ending sound is the piece of hardware that has the Digital to Analog converters (the soundcard).

That said, the SY99 is, IMO, one of the best synths ever made, and it's combination of Advanced FM with PCM, our own samples and the revolutionary (even by today terms still a very important and not common feature) Realtime Convolution and Modulation, where you can combine PCM sounds in an FM chain.

The sound of these series is great, and one of the greatest moments in Yamaha synth making history. Too bad they abandoned this concept, although it seems to have been resurrected (in some aspects) in the recent Montage.

[IncarnateX]

I have gone back into hardware rompler land too recently. It is not that I think VSTis sound thin, with all the things you can do to them within a DAW, layering, spreading, adding chorus, delay, reverb, compressors etc., it shouldn't really be a problem. If that doesn't work for you, try sending them through some good outboard just as you would with hardware synths. However, no doubt that romplers like SY77 sounds quite different to me than my VSTis and that is no wonder since my VSTis mainly are VA and not romple based engines. Sometimes you just get tired of a certain type of sound and I am pretty fatigued by software VAs as well as working with PCs, so a good rompler workstations with loads of waveforms and a deep synth engine can really make a difference. No doubt that the SY77 and 99 were very superior to other workstations of their time soundwise and can still compete with modern synths today. If I had the space for it, I would love to own one myself. But I haven't so I will stick to my MC909 and Fantom G6 as far as romplesynths goes, because these fullfill some important needs apart from sound quality that others don't.

[ghettosynth]

First, I love the SY77/99. I still have a 77 but it's on the bench ATM getting a new LCD display. That said, as great as I think those instruments are, I suspect that your perception is going to be highly coloured by bias. It might not even just be hardware bias, it could simply be "it's new to me" bias.

I don't disagree with what other people are saying either, but, if you're not getting sounds out of plugins that are comparable to the SY, then I would think that something other than "OMG SY is awesome" is responsible for that.

[dellboy]

Not sure how scientific this is.

But I remember well going to the music show in 1989 excited to have a go on the brand new Yamaha SY77.

I put on the headphones and played a few presets and was blown away by how good it sounded.

So if it sounded great then,why not now ?

What has changed ?

Is a James Bond 1964 Aston Martin still as great as I remember ?

Just saying.

[VariKusBrainZ]

So now we're saying hardware does sound better than software

[ghettosynth]

So now we're saying hardware does sound better than software

Some people are going to say that until the end of time, even when hardware is largely just software running on a dedicated computer.

[VariKusBrainZ]

So now we're saying hardware does sound better than software

Some people are going to say that until the end of time, even when hardware is largely just software running on a dedicated computer.

Try telling that to an analog synth

Anyway, carry on as you were

[lfm]

I moved to external gear - two synths and digital piano and a digital Hammond organ.
All guitar stuff - pedal boards and physical tube amps - fiddled much to long with amp sims.

I think why I feel these sound more organic than any VST instruments are:

They are a hell lot more costly to make hardware in terms of investment - so it's really, really carefully made.

Not only electronics cost more, but plastic moulding stuff for all parts.
And it must be sturdy enough to take touring.
And to be worth all that trouble you need to have knowhow and technical staff with a lot of experience.

And dynamics is there - it's much easier to make analog headroom to actually get any dynamics.
There are limiters inside too, but carefully designed to keep dynamics feel to it all.

This digital stuff tend to be 0 dBFs all of it - if everything were -40dB we would be sick and not know what to do.
- Normalize, where is normalize??????

And first generations VST instrument stuff were 16 bits inside, and still have a couple with 16 bit libraries. And this also demands for keeping levels in the upper range. Same reasons as 16-bit recordings needed to be kept close to -3 dB at most in peaks.

Take -40 dB - that is 1/100 of 32768 steps - +/- 328 steps to reproduce music at -40dB 16 bits. So you keep levels up.

More and more libraries are 24-bit recordings and potential to actually get dynamics in there.

Anyway, that's why I think it sounds better and feels more organic...

[ghettosynth]

So now we're saying hardware does sound better than software

Some people are going to say that until the end of time, even when hardware is largely just software running on a dedicated computer.

Try telling that to an analog synth

Anyway, carry on as you were

Well, clearly, an analog synth doesn't fit that description, no? There is no doubt that bias plays a huge role in our perceptions and I think that the one thing that people could do to move forward is to earnestly recognize that when they are doing evaluations.

I have a few analog synths that I'll most likely never sell, but, to off the cuff imagine that the SY77 is better than software without some solid technical basis is rather doubtful. I'm not buying the A/D converter argument either, there really isn't much technical merit there.

[Sound Mechanics]

Just to add to this..

I had a Yamaha SY85 for several years but sold it due to a lack of space, but I compared it many times to Logic's synths and sampler and felt that the SY85 had something that the software just couldn't match.
There was a full richness to the sound and the onboard reverb saturated the sounds so well. It was easy to get great sounds from it where I always seem to be looking for that sweet spot with software.

[fmr]

So now we're saying hardware does sound better than software

Some people are going to say that until the end of time, even when hardware is largely just software running on a dedicated computer.

Try telling that to an analog synth

Anyway, carry on as you were

Well, clearly, an analog synth doesn't fit that description, no? There is no doubt that bias plays a huge role in our perceptions and I think that the one thing that people could do to move forward is to earnestly recognize that when they are doing evaluations.

I have a few analog synths that I'll most likely never sell, but, to off the cuff imagine that the SY77 is better than software without some solid technical basis is rather doubtful. I'm not buying the A/D converter argument either, there really isn't much technical merit there.

Well, take this: There is NO software replacement for a SY77/SY99 (I wish there was). The AFM synth engine is much better than the old FM engine of the DX7 II (which has been praised when emulated in syths like DeXed for example). Add to that a great multi FX unit (the SY99 comes equiped with the equivalent of a Yamaha SPX 900. This is one of the best multi-effects units ever made. Sure, today's plug-ins may beat this easily, but has like WHOLE suite of plug-ins.

The ROMs aren't that great (the Grand Piano, for example, totally sucks, as of today standards), but when used creatively in a synthesis chain, they supply material that allows for great sounds (it's a synth with a really powerful synth engine, not your usual sample playback ROMpler). And even today, the ROM of a workstation is quite small, qhen compared with any software ROMpler, yet they often beat those software ROMplers easily in terms of overall sound.

SY99 also allows you to load your own samples, which can be used as sound expansions to the bult-in ROMs. Last, but not least, the SY77/SY99 has a bank that can layer FOUR elements (two AFM + two AWM, or four AWM or four AFM). That's like a layer of two DX7 II patches.

AND, it has that great RCM feature (Realtime Convolution and Modulation), What is that? The possibility of routing the output of an AWM element into an operator of an AFM algorithm, allowing it to become part of the FM chain. So, you have the AWM sound on its own, and also as parte of an AFM chain, modulating or being modulated by the other operator's waves. Used judiciously, it open great sound design possibilities.

Again, there is NO softsynth that can compete with this beast.