Do I “need” analog synths?

[acYm]

I never paid attention to "knobby control interfaces" totally ignorant about them. If some of the knobby interfaces, you can program a knob on the controller to automate dumbass FX EQs, compressors, choruses, zillions of other plugins that don't give a hoot about MIDI and completely ignore MIDI messages, then somewhere along the line the knob gestures get turned into floats before they make it to the non-midi VST's. Maybe controller driver dependent or host-dependent or something else. There are many ways it could be done and still fit the VST spec.

so, with the various "knobby surfaces", as to why there are many who simply overlooked them, the problem so far has been one of abysmal presentation across the board. to be fair it's not easy, and something such as universal plugin control presents serious UX challenges and design requirements. as I said, ideally it happens at the top-level, i.e. in the main daw, and using an intermediate host bring along its own set of potential issues. you need a really solid piece of software to make it happen, and make the users happy.

but what we have learned from this is that a daw is much better suited at handling vst plugin control is than the MIDI protocol can be - some of the inherent flaws are non-existent. the smart people that used to work at NI set out to solve a specific problem when they started the Kore project: while a DAW excels at recording, editing, arranging and versioning, it never excels at tightly hosting a real-time synth or FX for the purpose of producing electronic music.

there are two possible approaches: easy-access templates, where only the main, or most musically useful, parameters are shown, and full control templates. Kore shipped with easy-access control pages, boatloads of them... but most of them were lack-luster, didn't showcase how the system can shine. by the time people started to understand how to make more full-featured, solid templates, it was too late, most people had the perception the idea of a universal sub-host was a waste of time, kind of like NI's new komplete kontrol is. regardless, they made it 95% of the way there with Kore 2. let me provide some photographic evidence of what it can look like if a high-end plugin control platform is well supported and developed.

let's begin with a good little synth





with a second page like it for osc 3/4











mono/poly is great, keep in mind you can get to the first 8 pages instantly, page 8 gets you to the first of 4 mod matrix setup pages that you can navigate with the arrows or jog wheel, so, splendid operation overall. zero controls missing. we'll pretend the on-board fx aren't there, it's just the meh MDE-X tacked on.



ok now I need to look at my vumeter, as this is an old 24-bit, non-floating point environment... a good plugin host can enhance the experience in various ways, here I have setup shortcuts to common gain staging values on the buttons



so that we can ram the signal through this hot new toy, the Pre-X7











then it's time to whip out Replika XT, now here's something snazzy. this prestigious vst has full multi-mode operation on all the parameters, it's all reflected on the controller in 5 ergonomic pages, you just switch modes and it sets itself up like magic. they probably made it like that, hoping it would look cool on the KK keyboards... I haven't seen that template but it must look stupid next to this one, that's for sure







let's get phased out a bit





at this point, might as well try to eq some of that mess



and handle those dynamics... oooh, Vice One CM, that's a good one, should load that more often



time to create a bus and setup an aux... this is xenoverb... sadly the multi-mode parameters don't auto-label like RXT, that's not always the case, but it works fine like this.



gonna color the verb some more with loc-ness
that's not a zero at the top, it's an actual phase invert symbol



a second aux, this time with Dubstation classic



with bark of dog on it, mostly for fun





now we're in the master bus, so we'll have an sdrr in desk mode...



FreeG acts as the main fader, it doesn't get any smoother.

splendid, that's the sound done, now we wedge in a Thesys at the beginning of the chain, record a little pattern on the launchpad pro, then hit the Action Section:



Track 1 is now live and ready to go, nothing left to do but record as many motion sequences as you want in Ableton, as though this were some Electribe on steroids (which is how I largely describe the experience). throughout the chain, every single parameter was always easily accessible - and always well proportioned in relation with the control being accessed, never annoying, always the proper value displayed. this was a premium chain full of well-made plugins, no doubt. you can move in between modules from the hardware, of course. once the plugins were loaded there was zero mousing in the operation, moving back and forth and tweaking... oh, and everything always has full recall, all the time. that's why I actually use RackSpacer (I know I can just use empty KoreSounds but RackSpacer sounds much more analog, so), it lets me align some effects like EQ's together in a lateral chain, so I can switch with the left/right arrows comfortably. that's some serious hardware workflow emulation for you. there is so much stuff that works well that you can have dozens of Kores like this and almost never repeat your plugins - take my word for it, it's my daily routine

this is basic stuff though, we can get really wild with length-synced midi file sequencing with multiple step-seqs in there, stuff you used to see in the advanced hardware studios in the electronica phase of the late 90's. a high-end electronic-music oriented DAW or host can deliver that experience and blur the lines, making it fun AND fast...

MIDI Learn cannot.

[lfm]

IMHO i believe you need a combination of analogue for warmth, digital for cold and real recordings for uniqueness

The “sound of analog” is not a topic I wanted this thread to include. There are so many threads on so many forums that have that topic. Let’s please not go there. My interest is in the control and play experiences.

Did you look at Nordlead stuff anything?

The way they implemented cross modulation on velocity is like nothing I saw elsewhere.

The play experience for me, is how you can adapt how you touch the keys to be expressive.

In nordlead you do like this - available on all knobs on panel
a) activate Assign and all knobs have a start value as they are
b) move any knob - and it will be modulated between those start and end values by velocity.
c) press Assign again - and now you have a range for each parameter touched - modulated on velocity.
d) you can move a knob now and the range (start-end distance) remain - but what was start value move and you can fool aound to get the response you want.

You can move a knob either right or left, getting modulated positiv or negative.

You have other separate velocity modulation too, on envelopes and amount that many synths have.

But I think Clavia really know how workflow engage you and support you.

There are various ways to reset just one Assign now and start over on that, or clear them all etc.

Besides that it sounds incredible, other things are well thought out as well.

I quite often get something like 50 presets saved, that I start off and go in different directions - then just changing oscillators or similar. So keeping track of where you save next preset is vital to know.

Store operation
a) press store
b) change to other presets and you can hear those - if that is something you will disregard and overwrite.
c) when you find one to overwrite - press store again - and done. Newest you worked on is stored.

Too many synths have no feature for this - you need to know which slots you are willing to overwrite - which is cumbersome if you like making your own sounds.

There 400+400 user presets you can store your own like in Nordlead 2X. The last 400 are 100 performances, where each hold 4 presets and those are copies, not references into the other banks.

And having four parts - you just hold two buttons together to layer those as you please.

For me keybeds are not the nicest in industry - but synths are.

So no - you don't need an analog synths for good control and play experience.

[acYm]

Discovery Pro does all of that and works great in Kore. it's a first rate performance synth, no doubt.

[Jace-BeOS]

I guess my advice, such as it is, is to try hardware, with the caveat that 1) it's probably not magical , and 2) it'll take work to make it work for you (probably), and 3) if you do love it, you'll be tempted to break your bank account to get more more more

Final tip: get something you can control and automate really well with MIDI if you're used to working ITB as it both helps bridge the gap and also if you drift away from hardware you can still treat it as a real virtual synth ( ) in the future if you don't sell it.

I can’t spend much and don’t have credit cards. I’m also agonizingly hand-wringing over spending money. I think I’m safe from breaking the bank.

Once MIDI comes into it for anything but note triggering and pitch wheel, the whole problem of control resolution comes along. I’m unaware of any analog synth that can be controlled via MIDI in any way but note trigger and pitch wheel. The control of analog parameters with a low-resolution MIDI control scheme usually involves sacrificing the analog fine control and most synths I’ve looked into don’t even bother with it. It’s all manual hands-on or nothing.

[Jace-BeOS]

All those Kore pictures... It’s a great device on a technical level, but I don’t find the user experience to be all that friendly. There’s just too much abbreviation, and navigation feels like a major chore from the controller. This is why I’ve made comments about menu diving.

I’m sure that, once you’ve got it set up how you want it, you can be proficient in its usage, but my brain doesn’t like all the setup, the abbreviations, the need to visually link a set of items on a tiny screen off to the right to the knobs and buttons on the left... It feels like I’m poking at something with a long stick, through the bars of a cage. The hardware controller offers good knobs, but not a good user interface.

[Michael L]

I’m unaware of any analog synth that can be controlled via MIDI in any way but note trigger and pitch wheel.

This may not fit your needs, but Soundtower makes plugin interfaces to control Dave Smith synths.
http://www.soundtower.com/plugse/
Below is the main page for the Evolver synth (discontinued but $4-500 used). I have it and it works well.

[GearNostalgia]

Hello. I have been browsing through this thread. I may have missed it, but have you tried using modular VSTs like VCV or Reaktor and using LFOs in them to sweep your parameters?

If that is not good enough I would take a look at ES-3 and pair that with a behringer Neutron or some Eurorack.

[S0lo]

Hello. I have been browsing through this thread. I may have missed it, but have you tried using modular VSTs like VCV or Reaktor and using LFOs in them to sweep your parameters?

Internal LFOs are very highres (like 24 bit or 32bit) in most plugin or hardware synths out there. The problem comes when you want to control software/hardware using ANOTHER piece of hardware. This depends on MIDI most of the time. MIDI has two resolutions, 7bit and 14bit. Unfortunately, like 90% of hardware out there implements only 7bit MIDI, And the ones which do 14bit, do it in a mediocre way. 14bit would be good enough if done correctly. It gives 16384 steps instead of 128 steps of 7bit.

If that is not good enough I would take a look at ES-3 and pair that with a behringer Neutron or some Eurorack.

Yea, That should work well. Given that the goal is to control hardware from software. The reverse is also possible using something like the ES-8. The problem is control will come in through AUDIO INs. This has to some how be mapped to knobs and faders in a DAW/plugin.

[Ed A.]

"Do I need analog synths?"

Yes. Yes you do, or you're not a true synthesist. Might as well give it up and take up watercolor painting if you don't have analog.

[thecontrolcentre]

Might as well give it up and take up watercolor painting if you don't have analog.

[Jace-BeOS]

"Do I need analog synths?"

Yes. Yes you do, or you're not a true synthesist. Might as well give it up and take up watercolor painting if you don't have analog.

I suck at painting. I suck most at watercolor. The paintings I did for my art classes back in the early 2000s were functional at best. You’d think they’d have taught us technique, but no. It’s like we had to teach ourselves and do assignments just as busywork. I get that you have to paint to learn to paint, but there was NO teaching of technique. None. Nada. Zilch. Zero.

My visual arts interests are mostly in photography and, at this point, music interests me more.

[Jace-BeOS]

I’m unaware of any analog synth that can be controlled via MIDI in any way but note trigger and pitch wheel.

This may not fit your needs, but Soundtower makes plugin interfaces to control Dave Smith synths.
http://www.soundtower.com/plugse/
Below is the main page for the Evolver synth (discontinued but $4-500 used). I have it and it works well.

If it’s MIDI controlled then that’s a digitally-controlled analog synth. How does Dave Smith deal with the conversion between digital and analog for the controls?

Anyway, I’m not looking for on-screen control. I’m looking for hands-on hardware. I have several MIDI-controlled hardware synths, and some of them integrate okay with my DAW, but none of them feel all that immediate and all have stepping (except the parameter-smoothed Access Virus, where I notice some latency, and it’s not exactly one control per function either). I’m looking for semi-modular analog, one control per parameter. No menu diving. No control stepping.

[Jace-BeOS]

Hello. I have been browsing through this thread. I may have missed it, but have you tried using modular VSTs like VCV or Reaktor and using LFOs in them to sweep your parameters?

If that is not good enough I would take a look at ES-3 and pair that with a behringer Neutron or some Eurorack.

LFO control is not what I’m looking for. You can’t perform those kinds of things.

What is ES-3?

[Jace-BeOS]

Given that the goal is to control hardware from software.

Who’s goal?

The industry? The industry doesn’t seem to care about high resolution control. Certainly not with hardware. Most users don’t care either, I think, so it’s not like existing hardware isn’t selling at all due to perceived inferiority.

My goal? Since the industry doesn’t care about high-resolution control, it isn’t an option for me. Certainly not with MIDI-driven physical controls. The exception being Kore, which is not MIDI, is extra complication, way too much configuration and menu diving for my tastes, and since it’s not running on my main machine due to it being abandoned, I’d still be recording audio anyway).

That’s why I’m looking to analog synths to see how I might get on with them; recording them as live audio performances. All hands-on control, no menus. I’m not looking to abandon my other stuff, just add a new option and hopefully new experience.

[bmanic]

The limitations of MIDI control have bothered me forever. I really can not understand why OSC (open sound control) hasn't completely taken over the hardware controller market. It allows for much more indepth control of things and supports much higher resolutions of control.

.. and no, I don't want an iPad to control things with. I want physical encoders and faders with extremely high resolution.

A proper universal control surface using OSC would be a complete dream come true but so far nobody has made one.