Behringer TD-3 Analog Bass Line Synthesizer

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
Stefken
KVRAF
2032 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:39 am

justin3am wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:10 am
Stefken wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:08 am
It's big brother is in the works. :hyper:
Devil(f)ish...

https://m.facebook.com/behringer/photos ... &source=48
http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/beh ... uthorised/
Didn't read it all but comes across as a tantrum because Uli and him didn't come to an agreement.
A royalty payment for each unit sold being one of his demands.
Payment being 15% of the retail price which Devilfish guy would set at double the price for the TD-3. So 155 euro x 2 x 0.15 = 46,5 euro for each unit sold. I don't know how many units typically are sold but even 20.000 units is considered a 'limited edition'.
So we're probably talking millions of euro's here.

Sounds he was hoping for a sweet deal and now he'll have nothing. So he decided to start throwing mud on Behringer.

I guess Behringer wasn't bad when he could make money out of it...

Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
15159 posts since 7 Sep, 2008

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:08 am

And from the other side which includes the full email trail:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... count=4579

Robin sounds like a right wanker.
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"

User avatar
justin3am
KVRAF
11595 posts since 7 May, 2006 from Southern California

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:27 am

Mushy Mushy wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:08 am
And from the other side which includes the full email trail:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... count=4579

Robin sounds like a right wanker.
I would be too, if I were in his position. It would be difficult to react rationally. Is this really a good look for Behringer?

Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
15159 posts since 7 Sep, 2008

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:34 am

justin3am wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:27 am
Mushy Mushy wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:08 am
And from the other side which includes the full email trail:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... count=4579

Robin sounds like a right wanker.
I would be too, if I were in his position. It would be difficult to react rationally. Is this really a good look for Behringer?
They have a right to defend their position. Robin should have never released the conversation, that’s just bad business. Robin could really have benefited from this in a big way by simply compromising rather than throwing his toys out of the pram at the first push back. That’s business after all.
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"

User avatar
justin3am
KVRAF
11595 posts since 7 May, 2006 from Southern California

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:05 pm

I should not have spoken on this subject. It's not my place and I forgot that my employer's name is in my signature. I do not speak for my employer, in this case. It's just something I take very personally and as a result I reacted emotionally.
Business sucks (my personal opinion).

Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
15159 posts since 7 Sep, 2008

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:06 pm

justin3am wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:05 pm
I should not have spoken on this subject. It's not my place and I forgot that my employer's name is in my signature. I do not speak for my employer, in this case. It's just something I take very personally and as a result I reacted emotionally.
Business sucks (my personal opinion).
8)
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"

chk071
KVRAF
30540 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:09 pm

I find it rather interesting that something like that comes from a guy who largely benefitted from pimping a product which is not his own (Devil Fish mod for Roland's TB-303).

Guy in a glass house?
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

Stefken
KVRAF
2032 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Post Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:02 am

Uli responded on gearslutz with full details of the communication. Basically, what he is saying is that these are simple mods with a component cost of 3 dollars. Paying 300.000 dollars/year and doubling product price doesn't match with his customer philosophy.

Uli also provided full communication details in which Robin stated amongst others things that he would make a high end metal casing devilfish, selling it for 2K, and which would yield him 1K profit per unit. (I'm stating this by heart as the post has disappeared by now). Robin is free to do so off course but it's obvious that he's not going for small profit margins.

To compare : Uli could probably bring his devilfish to market for 200 euro/dollar (or less) which is 1/10th of Robin's version.

Heinakroon
KVRer
2 posts since 22 May, 2018

Post Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:05 pm

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Mushy Mushy wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:08 am
And from the other side which includes the full email trail:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... count=4579 (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=14513109&postcount=4579)

Robin sounds like a right wanker.
The GS post has been taken down, but here's Uli Behringer’s response in full: https://textuploader.com/16l0e (https://textuploader.com/16l0e)

VitaminD
Pick Me Pick me!
9044 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from a state of confusion

Post Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:57 pm

chk071 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:09 pm
I find it rather interesting that something like that comes from a guy who largely benefitted from pimping a product which is not his own (Devil Fish mod for Roland's TB-303).

Guy in a glass house?
I was thinking the same thing. What a mess. He should have just taken the deal or, at the least, tried to negotiate a more reasonable offer than 300k a year. I am not very happy with the Behringer stance though on what they were expecting out of it for the little they were allegedly offering (15k).

Yet the alterations aren't exactly patented? What is stopping Behringer from modifying the TD3 design and adding additional features as they please and naming it something different? That is to say, they didn't have to engage the DF folks at all to make an enhanced 303-like synth...

I will agree though the 'Murdered out' naming is stupid, but so is 'devil fish' to me. Maybe that is attractive to 15 year old boys, but it is not something I want labeled on my synthesizers. Legit Homie Dope Goldchainz Edition.. Rubber Ducky Edition maybe.. Numbfish Version.. no no.. :hihi:

Just make an enhanced model. Add a delay effect too please.

Stefken
KVRAF
2032 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Post Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:47 am

Behringer will apparently not do a 1:1 DF mod but has opened up the discussion and has reached out to their customers to just ask them what mods they want. Which is a good thing. RW may not have legal claims on the DF mods but if they are not going to work with them, it's a good thing to show the respect.

There have been all kinds of mods, so you can request your favorite mod here:

https://m.facebook.com/behringer/photos ... on_generic

And this new thread:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... oser=false

Scotty
KVRAF
2394 posts since 23 Dec, 2002

Post Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:42 am

Devil Fish is going to do fine regardless. There are going to be tons of new 303s (clones) in the marketplace. Some of those new owners will want the best quality switches, pots and modifications and he can react accordingly.

Behringer won't do all the mods that are possible nor with they use the highest quality parts. That will give him another opportunity to differentiate his boutique modding business. There will be people who will pay for that service for the yet to be released new Murdered Out TD-3 and the currently shipping TD-3.

He won't get all expense paid speaking engagement trips or an automatic $300 000 dollar salary for using his name or a percentage of royalties. He'll have to work for it like he has always done AND he can thank Behringer for it because the supply of 303 style products and customers willing to pay for his service has just grown substantially.

The only losers here are Roland for not truly appreciating the legacy of their own product catalog. For them this is a huge lost opportunity. For the rest of us including Mr. Devil Fish this is a win/win.

Behringer just gave Mr. Devil Fish a lucrative life line even if he doesn't know it.
Last edited by Scotty on Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Stefken
KVRAF
2032 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Post Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:09 am

We'll see.
Behringer has an opportunity here to deliver a product that is better than the DF mod. With the help of the modding community to which they are already reaching out.

- create a mod that is more musical and has a larger sweetspot than the DF
- optimised design; the DF mod is just amateur hour on design level
- sequencing: better sequencer that allows live tweaking while the pattern runs, better daw integration

There is also the XOXbox and Avalon that Behringer can look at. As they state, they might make multiple mods.

Not sure how many people will go for the DF mod at 1200 dollars then...

As for Roland. They clearly have chosen for the DSP route. I think people would kill for analog re-issues and if you look at the prices Korg is asking for re-issues, floating on the waves of the second hand market prices, they could make a lot of money on it.

Scotty
KVRAF
2394 posts since 23 Dec, 2002

Post Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:26 am

Yes I just read that post that they are wanting to work with other modders and they may do more than one version. That complicates it for Devil Fish. I still think there will be some people who will pay for their service if they are using really high quality components - not very many people could afford their services before and the supply of 303s was drying up. Still an opportunity for them but they will be trying to guess where Behringer is going which is a difficult spot to be in if you are trying to build a business based on a moving target.

Stefken wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:09 am
We'll see.
Behringer has an opportunity here to deliver a product that is better than the DF mod. With the help of the modding community to which they are already reaching out.

- create a mod that is more musical and has a larger sweetspot than the DF
- optimised design; the DF mod is just amateur hour on design level
- sequencing: better sequencer that allows live tweaking while the pattern runs, better daw integration

There is also the XOXbox and Avalon that Behringer can look at. As they state, they might make multiple mods.

Not sure how many people will go for the DF mod at 1200 dollars then...

As for Roland. They clearly have chosen for the DSP route. I think people would kill for analog re-issues and if you look at the prices Korg is asking for re-issues, floating on the waves of the second hand market prices, they could make a lot of money on it.

AnX
KVRAF
10350 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Post Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:12 am

so DF just lost the chance of getting 15k for doing nothing? :lol:

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