New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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Pashkuli
KVRist
159 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:26 am

You could do that with simple setup like this one (old video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7CprnZvM3k
Ok, let's say that functionality for music application would be based on 95% software.

deastman
KVRAF
7302 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:57 am

BONES wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:43 pm
deastman wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:47 pm
On the Seaboard, well... I have specific complaints about the usability of each axis.
Care to share? I have none, I absolutely love it.
X-axis: while applying vibrato or slightly larger bends, it will often detect that I’ve played the adjacent note, abruptly stopping the bend im in the middle of and triggering the new note. This never happens with LinnStrument, for example.

Y-axis: 1)The way the silicone tends to bunch up when you slide forwards if you aren’t extremely careful with your approach and technique. 2) The shorter travel of the usable range of the “black keys” as opposed to the “white keys”, when playing it with conventional piano technique.

Z-axis: It’s very difficult to get the pressure curves right so you can gently ease in and out of a sound to and from silence. This works way better on every other MPE controller I’ve used.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.

SLiC
KVRAF
4378 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:06 pm

BONES wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:24 pm
Do you want to buy my Roli, I Don’t need it anymore

Counting your chickens before they've hatched> Yeah, that's the mark of someone who knows what they're doing. Just remember all the teething problems Roli had. I'd be waiting to see how it goes before I jumped onto anything, especially looking at how rough the keyboard in the videos look.
I’m not replacing it with the Osmose, that doesn’t come until next summer, I replaced it with the Sensel Morph which I much prefer.
i7 Win 10 PC+ Surface, BWS V3, StudioOne 4, Cubase 10, Live 9 suite, X32 Desk. , DM12, Odyssey, P8, Virus TI, 500hp Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, Heat, Digitone, Deluge, OP-Z, Mother+DFAM, Drums, Guitars, Basses and Amps

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7521 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:14 pm

deastman wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:57 am
BONES wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:43 pm
deastman wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:47 pm
On the Seaboard, well... I have specific complaints about the usability of each axis.
Care to share? I have none, I absolutely love it.
X-axis: while applying vibrato or slightly larger bends, it will often detect that I’ve played the adjacent note, abruptly stopping the bend im in the middle of and triggering the new note. This never happens with LinnStrument, for example.

Y-axis: 1)The way the silicone tends to bunch up when you slide forwards if you aren’t extremely careful with your approach and technique. 2) The shorter travel of the usable range of the “black keys” as opposed to the “white keys”, when playing it with conventional piano technique.

Z-axis: It’s very difficult to get the pressure curves right so you can gently ease in and out of a sound to and from silence. This works way better on every other MPE controller I’ve used.
Are you talking about the Rise 49? If so, I wonder if there are differences between early or later models. I really don't have any of these problems. Weirdly though, I remember trying a Rise 49 in a music store last year and thought the same thing about the silicone bunching up, however on the one that I ordered and bought almost new, I don't really feel the same way. Not sure if it's me or the unit!

With respect to the bending accidentally triggering adjacent notes, I've not experienced this but actually the opposite if the pitch/glide sensitivity is at full. It always interprets playing a separate adjacent semi-tone as a bend. However backing off the sensitivity just slightly mode it perfect. Separate adjacent notes and equally good gliding. Have you played with the sensitivity? Sounds like it's too low from what you're describing. Can't say I've had the pressure issue either, maybe also something you could adjust with sensitivity?
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1. Bitwig 3.0, Steinberg UR44.

deastman
KVRAF
7302 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:37 pm

This is from the first batch of Rise 49s, so I suppose there’s always the possibility they’ve refined it since then. I only know that other controllers, most notably LinnStrument and Continuum, give me a vastly superior playing experience in almost every respect. I suspect that most people who rave about how great the Seaboard is haven’t actually tried the others on the market... I know I felt that way at first, the Rise being my first MPE controller. The only thing I like better about the Seaboard is that it feels like I’m fondling some strange alien creature. :lol:
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.

TobyB
KVRist
38 posts since 18 Dec, 2018

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:34 pm

I am really keen on expresive controllers - midi guitar and Linnstrument are my base line as I am no keyboard player... Roli hasn't worked especially well under my fingers, Touche is interesting but would be better if I had more keyboard skills.
This new option looks to be a brilliant addition as an MPE controller to my hardware synths (002, Nf1, Micromonsta, Peak) as well as my VST's ... the built in sound engine icing on cake!
Exciting times...

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Pashkuli
KVRist
159 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:43 pm

To the guys of Osmose or Expresive E or Haken, or to whomever understands Design*:
here is a basic (not complete of course) design for a standard piano keyboard, which is way better than the standard flat and ancient. As I said, you can have this for free or let's say for a bucket of ice cream. :)
Osmose kbd - 01.jpg
Osmose kbd - 02.jpg
Osmose kbd - 03.jpg
Osmose kbd - 04.jpg
*Disclaimer: if you copy directly the design from the pictures above, please know, it is 3/4 complete, so do not do it...
Personal message would be fine.
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Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7521 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:27 pm

deastman wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:37 pm
This is from the first batch of Rise 49s, so I suppose there’s always the possibility they’ve refined it since then. I only know that other controllers, most notably LinnStrument and Continuum, give me a vastly superior playing experience in almost every respect. I suspect that most people who rave about how great the Seaboard is haven’t actually tried the others on the market... I know I felt that way at first, the Rise being my first MPE controller. The only thing I like better about the Seaboard is that it feels like I’m fondling some strange alien creature. :lol:
I have a linnstrument as well (which I had before getting the Rise). My experience was better going to the Rise. Haven't decided yet if I'm going to keep the linnstrument. It's cool as well of course in it's own way. Don't know that I need both though.
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1. Bitwig 3.0, Steinberg UR44.

deastman
KVRAF
7302 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:39 pm

I definitely don’t need everything I already have. I have no rational way of justifying such excess, so I just shut off that critical portion of my brain and continue spending. :help:
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9291 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:51 pm

Pashkuli wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:15 pm
Well, then apparently when you've got the keyboard split, you do not need MPE (extremely doubtful). But maybe on those Seaboard splitting it can give you completely separate data flow, but even then MPE should be necessary to get the proper channels from the split. Have not tried it, can't tell with enough certainty.
How long have you been at this? You don't do a keyboard split from your controller, you do it in your host. You load two synths (or two instances of the same synth), set their key ranges so they don't overlap (unless overlapping them is advantageous, of course) and then play your controller just like you would at any other time. Do it right and you may not even remember there is a split there.
I still think that 15~20mm of Y-travel is more than enough for Modulation.
Then set it up so that's all the travel you need. It's the easiest thing in the world and means you, the user, have more options.
Ok, make it double that ~40mm. More than that is just a waste of energy, time, effort, control.
Except that on a Seaboard, once you get to the top or bottom, you can then move from SLIDE to GLIDE and do more funky stuff, with several hundred mm of travel (depending on which Seaboard you have). The Seaboard works the way it does to maximise the options and expressivity available to the player/user. You are free to close off as many of those options as you want to.
Also I look at those type of instruments as linear grids (Ok, the Linnstrument is a cell grid). Maybe I am old school, but still think that when the actual key has been designed properly and with care, skilfully equipped with the necessary triggers... there is not that much need for software (let alone synths). Would make it expensive otherwise. I restrict myself to MIDI controller/keyboard only.
Then you're an idiot. Everything comes from software, whether you realise it or not. MIDI is software, there is software that translates your banging of the keys into electrical impulses that are used to trigger sounds. It's all underpinned by software.
I understand that without the dedicated software Osmose or Seaboard are simply low resolution touch panels.
They aren't even that, without software they wouldn't work at all. If you want to know what they'd be like without software, try using one without switching it on first.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9291 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:05 pm

deastman wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:57 am
X-axis: while applying vibrato or slightly larger bends, it will often detect that I’ve played the adjacent note, abruptly stopping the bend im in the middle of and triggering the new note.
You should be able to sort that by changing the sensitivity of the surface to GLIDE. From memory, there is also a setting to preserve the sanctity of the semi-tone which you might want to switch off or turn down or something.
Y-axis: 1)The way the silicone tends to bunch up when you slide forwards if you aren’t extremely careful with your approach and technique.
I had that problem on my Rise but never on my Block. It doesn't just seem to be because it's physically smaller, I think they fiddled with the design so that wouldn't happen.
2) The shorter travel of the usable range of the “black keys” as opposed to the “white keys”, when playing it with conventional piano technique.
That's never come up for me but I can see how it could be annoying.
Z-axis: It’s very difficult to get the pressure curves right so you can gently ease in and out of a sound to and from silence.
That's something you could do with one of the other controls on the Rise, maybe the X-Y pad, or I'd do on the Lightpad Block with my little 'un. (I have the Songmaker Kit.) It would never occur to me to even try and do it from the keywaves but it's an interesting prospect.
deastman wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:37 pm
I only know that other controllers, most notably LinnStrument and Continuum, give me a vastly superior playing experience in almost every respect. I suspect that most people who rave about how great the Seaboard is haven’t actually tried the others on the market...
The thing for me is that a Linnstrument doesn't look like anything even remotely connected to music so I can't imagine how long it would take me to adapt to it and nobody sells Continuums here. Mind you, even if they did, the price makes it something I have less than no interest in. I only bought a Rise 25 because I got it for around 50% off and I only got the Songmaker kit because selling the Rise completely paid for it. Of course, the other thing is that I have no interest in MPE, only in the five dimensions of touch the Rolis offer. I never use my Seaboard in MPE mode, only ever in Single Channel MIDI mode.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

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Pashkuli
KVRist
159 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:21 pm

BONES wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:51 pm
How long have you been at this? You don't do a keyboard split from your controller, you do it in your host.
I can definitely split the keyboard from my controller. I've got two buttons actually: Layer and Split.
So, yes. I've been for quite some time into this.

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9291 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:37 pm

Maybe you can but why would you? Much easier to set it up in your host so that it all happens automagically when you load the project and you don't have to remember to do it in the middle of a session or on stage or whatever. It seems you haven't been at it long enough to learn more than one way of doing anything.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

deastman
KVRAF
7302 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:59 pm

BONES wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:05 pm
The thing for me is that a Linnstrument doesn't look like anything even remotely connected to music so I can't imagine how long it would take me to adapt to it and nobody sells Continuums here. Mind you, even if they did, the price makes it something I have less than no interest in. I only bought a Rise 25 because I got it for around 50% off and I only got the Songmaker kit because selling the Rise completely paid for it. Of course, the other thing is that I have no interest in MPE, only in the five dimensions of touch the Rolis offer. I never use my Seaboard in MPE mode, only ever in Single Channel MIDI mode.
The LinnStrument layout is essentially a guitar layout.

If you do ever get the chance to try out a Continuum, I highly recommend it. It’s pretty extraordinary.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.

SLiC
KVRAF
4378 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:34 am

The LinnStrument was the first MPE controller I tried as I am primarily a guitarist so thought I would instantly transfer my guitar chops to the synth. Unfortunately it didn’t work out that way and it ended up feeling like a poor substitute for a guitar and I went back to midi guitar...
i7 Win 10 PC+ Surface, BWS V3, StudioOne 4, Cubase 10, Live 9 suite, X32 Desk. , DM12, Odyssey, P8, Virus TI, 500hp Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, Heat, Digitone, Deluge, OP-Z, Mother+DFAM, Drums, Guitars, Basses and Amps

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