Disappointment in hardware synths

[stash98]

OP sounds like a complete noob. If you want to make tracks, committ your ideas to audio and go. Most of us know this already.

[VitaminD]

Hi folks,

I was so excited when Behringer made analog synths affordable, without checking the limitations and how analog synths work, I bought Neutron and Model D and I was sure these two synths are more than enough to make "fully" analog tracks. Well, I was naive, then I discovered that there is no way to save patches, and I have to record the synth every time I change the patch, and all the CV hassle, etc. Finally, I came to conclusion that a pure analog synth is more a toy than a workhorse device. I can be a nice touch to a track to add one sound per analog synth, but that's it. So, I was wondering how others incorporate analog synths into their workflow.

Thanks.

I think outside of the first response you got, that's about it.

Generally speaking, one gets more hands-on interaction with the synthesizer in a hardware form, but the trade off is less interaction with the sequencer (with respect to presets and parameter modulation).

Software synths have the opposite issue.

You have to pick the method that works best for your choices. It might even be something in between.

About 7 years ago I was pretty heavy into sound design. Until I realized I was spending much more time creating sounds and very very little time creating songs. Then I decided to just start using more presets and dedicating more of my music time to actual music production. It has worked out better.. I have somethings to show for my time now.

For others it works the other way around and the sound design aspect is either all they care about or is the springboard to song creation. Different methods of (hopefully) coming to a similar end in an actual song produced. You're probably just like me in workflow and don't want to tweak and explore the synth in order to find the 'right' sounds for the song.

That said I'd really like to see more VST interfaces with total recall and patch banks adopted on the hardware side for those of us who prefer that method of working. Something like the Virus TI. Mystery Islands does something kind of like it, but theirs are a little kludgey imo.

[MeneerJansen]

then I discovered that there is no way to save patches, and I have to record the synth every time I change the patch.

Some people do the slightest amount of basic research before throwing hundreds of dollars at new things.

Others, apparently, do not.... and get what they deserve.

I mean, it took more effort to sign up and post on KVR than it would have to learn about the synths you were buying.

I mean, this must be a troll, right? This is just too stupid.

I don't particularly like negativity in forums, but I too thought that the topic starter was joking when I read that he spent $600 without knowing if a synth can save patches or not. I don't think this even deserves a serious reply, yet I am replying...

[zerocrossing]

then I discovered that there is no way to save patches, and I have to record the synth every time I change the patch.

Some people do the slightest amount of basic research before throwing hundreds of dollars at new things.

Others, apparently, do not.... and get what they deserve.

I mean, it took more effort to sign up and post on KVR than it would have to learn about the synths you were buying.

I mean, this must be a troll, right? This is just too stupid.

I don't particularly like negativity in forums, but I too thought that the topic starter was joking when I read that he spent $600 without knowing if a synth can save patches or not. I don't think this even deserves a serious reply, yet I am replying...

I’ve got a bit more sympathy for the OP. I wouldn’t call myself a “n00b” when I sold my TS-10 and purchased a handful of synths and a MIDI controller, but I fully admit that I didn’t expect aftertouch to have become so rare and polyphonic aftertouch completely extinct. My bad for not doing more research, but from my vantage point, it seemed like a thing that was being added to synths like airbags got added to cars. I exchanged the MIDI controller and got a Novation 61 and moved on. Lesson learned.

If you look at history, patch memory had become a pretty standard feature up until fairly recently. If most of your synth experience happened in the mid 80s through the 10s, it would be pretty easy to imagine that synths just came with that feature. If you’ve never made a purchase that you later regret, good for you, but I think most of us have ended up with things that we later find just don’t work for us.

[MeneerJansen]

[...] If you’ve never made a purchase that you later regret, good for you, but I think most of us have ended up with things that we later find just don’t work for us.

I agree. But there is a difference between a feature that is hidden and something that is right there in your face. I think that the world is not black and white, but gray. That is, there ain't such a thing as every synth having quirks or missing features: some of 'm are pretty straightforward. I do not think Behringer is trying to trick customers into buying their Model D synth by concealing that it has no patch memory. Sometimes, though, there is hardware (TV's, synths, cars, etc.) that does not have a certain feature that you may expect it to have, even-though it isn't explicitly advertised (bumper, airbag, all Midi functionality if there's a Midi port, etc.).

[AdvancedFollower]

There are tons of analogue synths with patch memories. This has always been a requirement for me when buying hardware. The way I work is I keep everything as MIDI (with audio input monitoring) until very late in the process, because I tend to change and tweak the melodies and articulations a lot. Being able to store and automatically recall a preset via Program Change messages or a VST editor is a must for me.

[tehlord]

The issue here is expectation, not technology.

[Robmobius]

If you're disappointed in hardware then you really haven't a clue about music production...

[Stefken]

The way Vince Clark works has some elegance to it imo.
He creates the melodies etc with vst's, having the benefit of easy DAW integration.
Then for the mix, he swaps the vst out for his analog synths.

Myself, I'm not so hot for analog synths without patch memory.

Not an expert, just my 2 cents and maybe to some use for the OP.

[trusampler]

Any of you remember a time that you had to track out each instrument real-time, performances had to be great. Studio time relied on everyone being solid, or midi clock issues with drum machines? Lol
Needless to say, I feel your pain OP, but you have no idea how much daws and vsts revolutionized our lives. Stick with vsts, analog just isn't for some.

[todd_r]

OP is right, go into any professional studio and all you'll find is a laptop, zero hardware.

[vurt]

i cant decide if i want sweet or salty?

[AnX]

i cant decide if i want sweet or salty?

is that the Cheeky Girls first names?

[trusampler]

OP is right, go into any professional studio and all you'll find is a laptop, zero hardware.

[BlackWinny]

Finally, I came to conclusion that a pure analog synth is more a toy than a workhorse device.

Go listen to Switched-On Bach, or better yet, any of Isao Tomita's works from 1974-1982 and you'll hear what "a toy" can do. That is... with skill, understanding of synthesis and sound design, and practice, and a little effort (it's not even that much effort).

Excellent reply, foosnark !

And we could add many great musicians who still love these old analog synths from the pre-preset era and who today keep on making music using them in their tracks (and sometimes ONLY them in some tracks) : Rick Wakeman, Jean-Michel Jarre, Vangelis, John Carpenter, Jordan Rudess, Ryuichi Sakamoto, Kitaro, Klaus Schulze, Patrick Moraz, Paul Haslinger (in many of his movie soundtracks as well as in his Tangerine Dream parts), Johannes Schmoelling (idem and in many TV signature tunes), Tim Blake, Peter Gabriel, Vince Clarke, Hans Zimmer, Christopher Franke, Richard Tandy, Roger Joseph Manning Jr, Paul Meany, Nick Rhodes (I really like this guy!), Suzanne Ciani, Michael Cretu (Enigma, you don't know?), Francis Rimbert, Jónsi (from Sigur Rós), Claudio Simonetti (from the Goblin band, known for their crazy soundtracks made with old analog synths), Jerome Froese (Edgar's son), all the Kraftwerk members...

roman.i, would you say that all these famous composers and producers consider the old analog synths, even from before the preset era, as toys for entertainments ?!?

Were (are still) the Analogue Systems RS-Integrator, the Aries 300, the ARP 2600, the ARP Odyssey, ARP Solina String Synthesizer, the Doepfer modular, the EMS VCS3 and Synthi AKS, the Farfisa Syntorchestra (Klaus Schulze's fetish instrument for years), the Korg Delta, the Korg Mono/Poly, the Korg MS-20 (and even the bigger MS-50), the huge Korg PS-3300, the Moog Modular, the Minimoog, the Roland SH-5, the Roland SH-7, the Roland SH-101, the Roland System 100 (and even the huge System 700), the SCi Pro-One, the Steiner-Parker Synthacon, the Yamaha CS-80, the huge Yamaha GX-1, etc. only toys for entertainments ?!?

Not only all these synths were widely used by famous musicians of their epoch... but they are still used by great musicians, composers and producers, of today ! And they don't seem to think that they are just toys ! Their use is indeed not as easy as with the synths of today, they need a different organization in the production methods as well as in the time to spend with them to make tracks... but they are definitely not toys at all and are still fully effective instruments for real musicians !

There are today too many people who are probably not but "home musicians" and just "internet producers" and perhaps mainly "forum musicians" who don't go and see what really great musicians still do today... and who think that the world began only when they were born.


And in addition, we can add a precision : the fact that a synth is analog doesn't mean that it hasn't any preset system. All those I cited above didn't have any preset memory (just a few had a very rudimentary and very partial and extremely limited memory, as the CS-80 for example), but many analog synths had digitally controlled analog devices (a DCO is not a digital oscillator as many people think, a DCO is a real analog oscillator but digitally controlled, same for DCF, same thing for DCA, same thing for many DSP sections, etc.) and some other new synths didn't get the digital controls but another type of very accurate analog control, and hence while pure analog synths concerning the signal path they were capable of much better stability but also were capable of using built-in memory for presets. That's what made possible the creation of a new generation of many new analog synths as the SCi Prophet-5, the Roland Juno-60, the Roland Jupiter-8, the Roland JX8P and JX10, the ARP Quadra, the Korg Polysix, the Korg Poly-61 and Poly-800, the Moog Voyager, the Moog Memorymoog, several Oberheim models, several Casio models (they didn't make only the digital CZ-series, they made also great analog synths based on real analog components and circuits but very cleverly digitally controlled) etc. And there are still today many true analog synths (not using an analog modellisation but using true analog components) which are nowadays released every year, as some new Korg analog synths, some new Arturia analog synths, some new Moog analog synths, etc.