Went OTB - and then ITB again

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
KVRAF
5556 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:42 am

TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:08 am
BONES wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:21 pm
Fun is quite possibly the most over-rated thing ever. I tried it once
Must have been long time ago. A very long time. :scared:
See that's the thing - it takes 2 to argue. His unedited response was "Fun is quite possibly the most over-rated thing ever. I tried it once, it was a horrible experience (and a lot of cute, furry animals died)." Which made me piss myself. That's quite funny, no? But it's admittedly easy for people to only see his attack mode, which he only does when others state their opinion as fact, when it's obviously only opinion, and we all have one, like arseholes - some of us even have 2. So he does that back.

Bones has his foibles but he damned well does know what he's talking about and I have great respect for that. I almost work in a diametrically opposite way to him - he's very goal-orientated and he makes songs, tracks, he has a definite end point for music. The end product of songs/tracks is almost immaterial for me, but I've also been around forever and I can appreciate his expertise. He will also acknowledge that in others, even if he doesn't understand what their goals are. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't understand my lack of goals in music, but...it's irrelevant. I've found he only really ever gets into these arguments with others that also have definite music goals - and if you state your method of working or preferences as the right way to do whatever - Bones will likely take issue because he knows he gets his goals achieved differently, and he's no doubt honed down these goals to quickest/most efficient/most reproducable. If you tell him you can achieve something more easily with a hw synth, he'll call bullshit because no doubt he achieves the same thing himself far more reliably/quickly/reproducably with sw. Whereas if you tell him you like hw because you purely enjoy playing with them, he may not understand it, but he ain't going to argue with that - as he's pointed out many times, he has plenty of hw himself, despite himself.

Y'know - I've been here nearly 20 yrs and I don't think I've ever got into one of these tit for tat arguments with him. Might be wrong, but I don't remember it. Ultimately - Bones doesn't argue with himself. If you respond in kind - you're part of the argument. Nobody has to enter into nasty arguments, and you can choose to back off or simply not trigger him to start with. Whereas if you actually want some legitimate help with how to do something musically with technology - Bones can be pretty damn helpful and has been many times. I know if I ever went away from hw and needed help with how to use/what to use with sw to actually make tracks rather than noodling around making funny noises - Bones would be one of my go-tos for advice. And actually - he knows shitloads about hw too. He just doesn't generally wax so lyrical about hw.

If Bones were to banned for some of the posts he makes - then the respondents also should be considered. It's perfectly easy to share a music forum with Bones and not get into arguments with him. Bones does not tango on his own (though I know that is a seriously intriguing mental picture...) :shrug:

KVRAF
2449 posts since 1 Sep, 2016

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:02 am

kritikon wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:42 am
Bones has his foibles but he damned well does know what he's talking about
Like that time he said the fonts on Valhalla plugins were too small on his screen despite admitting he'd never even demoed them? :lol:

But the place would be worse off without him.

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KVRian
809 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:15 am

kritikon wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:42 am
TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:08 am
BONES wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:21 pm
Fun is quite possibly the most over-rated thing ever. I tried it once
Must have been long time ago. A very long time. :scared:
See that's the thing - it takes 2 to argue. His unedited response was "Fun is quite possibly the most over-rated thing ever. I tried it once, it was a horrible experience (and a lot of cute, furry animals died)." Which made me piss myself. That's quite funny, no? But it's admittedly easy for people to only see his attack mode, which he only does when others state their opinion as fact, when it's obviously only opinion, and we all have one, like arseholes - some of us even have 2. So he does that back.

Bones has his foibles but he damned well does know what he's talking about and I have great respect for that. I almost work in a diametrically opposite way to him - he's very goal-orientated and he makes songs, tracks, he has a definite end point for music. The end product of songs/tracks is almost immaterial for me, but I've also been around forever and I can appreciate his expertise. He will also acknowledge that in others, even if he doesn't understand what their goals are. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't understand my lack of goals in music, but...it's irrelevant. I've found he only really ever gets into these arguments with others that also have definite music goals - and if you state your method of working or preferences as the right way to do whatever - Bones will likely take issue because he knows he gets his goals achieved differently, and he's no doubt honed down these goals to quickest/most efficient/most reproducable. If you tell him you can achieve something more easily with a hw synth, he'll call bullshit because no doubt he achieves the same thing himself far more reliably/quickly/reproducably with sw. Whereas if you tell him you like hw because you purely enjoy playing with them, he may not understand it, but he ain't going to argue with that - as he's pointed out many times, he has plenty of hw himself, despite himself.

Y'know - I've been here nearly 20 yrs and I don't think I've ever got into one of these tit for tat arguments with him. Might be wrong, but I don't remember it. Ultimately - Bones doesn't argue with himself. If you respond in kind - you're part of the argument. Nobody has to enter into nasty arguments, and you can choose to back off or simply not trigger him to start with. Whereas if you actually want some legitimate help with how to do something musically with technology - Bones can be pretty damn helpful and has been many times. I know if I ever went away from hw and needed help with how to use/what to use with sw to actually make tracks rather than noodling around making funny noises - Bones would be one of my go-tos for advice. And actually - he knows shitloads about hw too. He just doesn't generally wax so lyrical about hw.

If Bones were to banned for some of the posts he makes - then the respondents also should be considered. It's perfectly easy to share a music forum with Bones and not get into arguments with him. Bones does not tango on his own (though I know that is a seriously intriguing mental picture...) :shrug:
Yeah, well, I dunno if you thought my response was serious. I read Bones' fun remark as a joke and responded as such. To me it seems that Bones is intelligent and has taken the piss on KVR ever since his Grrr subtitel. I often smile when I read him, and agree to more than a few things. However, I do recognize his style as something known from the angry part of the western EBM movements. Just look at this family party:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nncgo3PGvs

As far as I am concerned, people can just mute him and stop responding if they really care. Instead they turn the whole thread to be about him. If Bones did that, he is a master of self-promotion by negative attention. However, I am not really sure the blame is on him. :wink:
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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KVRAF
20425 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:19 am

DrGonzo wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:44 pm
Oh god no... I have tried it for years. Bought almost every hardware sequencer on the market, from low-end to crazy and high-end. I quickly ran back to the DAW with the tail between my legs :dog: :lol:
Yup, same here. While I haven't bought as many as you, the ones I did buy showed me that the DAW is where its at for me.

I do really enjoy the Elektron sequencers and I like hardware groove boxes in general. I find them more creatively juicy than trying to do the same thing in software. The hardware interfaces are so much more fun for me which leads to more satisfying results.

But then the output of various hardware always ends up in the DAW for final assembly as it were. :hihi:

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KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:07 am

Ive ended up using a Force…hard to describe as OTB as its kinda ITB but OTB lol. Its definitely clunkier, its definitely not as fully featured, but when it comes to arranging I prefer it just now…Id say why but at the expense of my opinion being called “bullshit” Id rather not. ;)

Even sold my Push 2 a few weeks ago which wouldve been unheard of last year.

I think we’re a version or two away from getting a standalone box with the same power and capabilities as a personal computer.

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2715 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:53 pm

kcearl wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:07 am
Ive ended up using a Force…hard to describe as OTB as its kinda ITB but OTB lol. Its definitely clunkier, its definitely not as fully featured, but when it comes to arranging I prefer it just now…Id say why but at the expense of my opinion being called “bullshit” Id rather not. ;)

Even sold my Push 2 a few weeks ago which wouldve been unheard of last year.

I think we’re a version or two away from getting a standalone box with the same power and capabilities as a personal computer.
Man up, man! Stare death in the eyes and let it all out!
Seriously - I'm really interested in hearing you fleshing out the Force.

I owned one for a while - but when I found out all MIDI tracks were Omni I rage-sold it. I was so angry I could have smashed it with a hammer. Maybe that have been fixed by now. I saw that you can connect audio interfaces to them new Akais now - which is a jaw-droppingly cool feature.

/C
Plughugger Sound Design
ELEMENT 27 - MODAL COBALT8 sounds for OMNISPHERE
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

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GRRRRRRR!
12577 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:56 pm

kcearl wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:07 am
Ive ended up using a Force…hard to describe as OTB as its kinda ITB but OTB lol. Its definitely clunkier, its definitely not as fully featured, but when it comes to arranging I prefer it just now…Id say why but at the expense of my opinion being called “bullshit” Id rather not. ;)
What's a "Force"? I also prefer simplicity. The problem with every main DAW is that they have to cater to a million different workflows, so most of us end up only using a fraction of what's available. That's what I liked about Orion - I used the shit out of it. There was hardly a feature in it that didn't get a regular workout and I've discovered that I'm happier if there are a few things missing that I might use if they were there, as opposed to having to deal with a hundred features I know I'll never use but they still get in the way.

Most people around here, however, seem to equate more features with better outcomes, which has rarely been the case in my experience. I've always found that keeping it as simple as you can makes it easiest to do the best work. Having recently taken that ethos to the extreme, I am finding it to be truer than I had ever imagined.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

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KVRian
809 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:16 pm

BONES wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:56 pm
What's a "Force"?
Akai stuff, mate. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... -sequencer
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2715 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:46 pm

BONES wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:56 pm
Most people around here, however, seem to equate more features with better outcomes, which has rarely been the case in my experience. I've always found that keeping it as simple as you can makes it easiest to do the best work. Having recently taken that ethos to the extreme, I am finding it to be truer than I had ever imagined.
Damn true words.
Plughugger Sound Design
ELEMENT 27 - MODAL COBALT8 sounds for OMNISPHERE
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

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GRRRRRRR!
12577 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:44 pm

You know I hate it when people agree with me, right?
TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:16 pm
Akai stuff, mate. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... -sequencer
Urgh! DJ shit. The stuff of nightmares. Just look at it, it's the size of a 1990s laptop, only with a 7" screen. 7"!!! And it even uses softsynths for on-board sounds. Why the hell would anyone use this over a laptop? It's not like it's cheaper than a decent laptop and Akai make their software for laptops so who would put up with a 7" screen when they didn't have to?
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

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KVRian
809 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:51 pm

BONES wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:56 pm
That's what I liked about Orion - I used the shit out of it. .
Me too. More agreements to hate. My DAW from 2008 till 2015. It was like joining a cult. The pattern approach was just the flow for me.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

AnX
KVRAF
10156 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:01 pm

Still is for me :tu:

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KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:12 am

BONES wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:44 pm
You know I hate it when people agree with me, right?
TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:16 pm
Akai stuff, mate. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... -sequencer
Urgh! DJ shit. The stuff of nightmares. Just look at it, it's the size of a 1990s laptop, only with a 7" screen. 7"!!! And it even uses softsynths for on-board sounds. Why the hell would anyone use this over a laptop? It's not like it's cheaper than a decent laptop and Akai make their software for laptops so who would put up with a 7" screen when they didn't have to?
DJ shit? 😂😂😂

This is why I just scroll over your novelettes…

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KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:31 am

DrGonzo wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:53 pm
kcearl wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:07 am
Ive ended up using a Force…hard to describe as OTB as its kinda ITB but OTB lol. Its definitely clunkier, its definitely not as fully featured, but when it comes to arranging I prefer it just now…Id say why but at the expense of my opinion being called “bullshit” Id rather not. ;)

Even sold my Push 2 a few weeks ago which wouldve been unheard of last year.

I think we’re a version or two away from getting a standalone box with the same power and capabilities as a personal computer.
Man up, man! Stare death in the eyes and let it all out!
Seriously - I'm really interested in hearing you fleshing out the Force.

I owned one for a while - but when I found out all MIDI tracks were Omni I rage-sold it. I was so angry I could have smashed it with a hammer. Maybe that have been fixed by now. I saw that you can connect audio interfaces to them new Akais now - which is a jaw-droppingly cool feature.

/C
No issues with midi (a lots changed since its issue)…I use it as an eight track recorder, it also disk streams any recorded audio now so you can just save to sample if you need to free up a track.

It supports 32 input/output audio, 32 usb midi tracks and 32 din midi.

Im currently using it to sequence 8 polys and 6 monos into a Soundcraft Sig 22. When I want to record through my outboard I just route it through 4 bus and 4 aux tracks on the mixer > outboard/fx > Focusrite 20i8 > Force. Really quick and simple, like a cut down standalone Ableton with a built in Push. Love it. :tu:

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

2715 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest

Post Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:52 am

kcearl wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:31 am
No issues with midi (a lots changed since its issue)…I use it as an eight track recorder, it also disk streams any recorded audio now so you can just save to sample if you need to free up a track.

It supports 32 input/output audio, 32 usb midi tracks and 32 din midi.

Im currently using it to sequence 8 polys and 6 monos into a Soundcraft Sig 22. When I want to record through my outboard I just route it through 4 bus and 4 aux tracks on the mixer > outboard/fx > Focusrite 20i8 > Force. Really quick and simple, like a cut down standalone Ableton with a built in Push. Love it. :tu:
That sounds really neat actually. How does it deal with sync, or are you just playing in your stuff live? I honestly can't remember syncing being a problem when I owned one. Syncing external stuff with Live is something I have totally given up on. The feel gets thrown out the window. Either I'm working 100% in Live or 100% in Digitakt. Adding a sync box fixes that really well - but just adds another layer of stuff that can go wrong.
Plughugger Sound Design
ELEMENT 27 - MODAL COBALT8 sounds for OMNISPHERE
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

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