Went OTB - and then ITB again

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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pdxindy
KVRAF
20501 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:54 am

kcearl wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:33 am
Oh and I call bullshit too, why not…everyones experiences except my own are bullshit
No no no... you're not doing it right. It needs to be 20 paragraphs long :hihi:

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
12586 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:08 am

kcearl wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:33 am
Oh and I call bullshit too, why not…everyones experiences except my own are bullshit
Nice try but it's only bullshit when you can't support it with facts. You have to remember that I currently own 8 hardware synths. The difference between you and I is simply that I don't pretend that there is any rational reason for owning those things. I am fully aware that it's an obscene indulgence on my part, completely unjustifiable in any logical way. But I am completely comfortable with that, which is why I don't understand why you have to try and justify the unjustifiable.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

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elxsound
KVRAF
7350 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:12 am

ThomasHelzle wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:46 am
elxsound wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:40 am
Bones WTF?!?! Slow down.
Just foe him and KVR is instantly a better place.
Logorrhea in combination with sitting inside a 100% (self-) reflecting sphere is a funny condition.
But not one anybody needs to share thankfully.
I'm good. I don't have any foes at this place.

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kcearl
KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:35 am

BONES wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:08 am
kcearl wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:33 am
Oh and I call bullshit too, why not…everyones experiences except my own are bullshit
Nice try but it's only bullshit when you can't support it with facts. You have to remember that I currently own 8 hardware synths. The difference between you and I is simply that I don't pretend that there is any rational reason for owning those things. I am fully aware that it's an obscene indulgence on my part, completely unjustifiable in any logical way. But I am completely comfortable with that, which is why I don't understand why you have to try and justify the unjustifiable.
I was joking

And I have slightly less that zero interest in discussing it as I haven't actually read your post beyond “bullshit”, I might later when I get time, busy just now.
Last edited by kcearl on Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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kcearl
KVRist
207 posts since 25 May, 2012 from Sunny Philly

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:37 am

pdxindy wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:54 am
kcearl wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:33 am
Oh and I call bullshit too, why not…everyones experiences except my own are bullshit
No no no... you're not doing it right. It needs to be 20 paragraphs long :hihi:
A book deal beckons!

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zerocrossing
KVRAF
11399 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:42 am

pdxindy wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:54 am
kcearl wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:33 am
Oh and I call bullshit too, why not…everyones experiences except my own are bullshit
No no no... you're not doing it right. It needs to be 20 paragraphs long :hihi:
Hold my beer. :lol:
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20501 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:53 am

BONES wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:08 am
facts.
What you call facts are merely the emanations of your own mind which is incapable of recognizing that your personal conclusions are pertinent to you and not necessarily anyone else.

vitocorleone123
KVRian
1003 posts since 30 Jun, 2014 from Pacific NW

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:15 am

BONES wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:24 pm
vitocorleone123 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:11 am
Roland SE-02, then an OB-6 desktop, then, finally, so I could turn the screen off if I wanted and also have drums, a Digitone. None of them have a clone (yet?), so they're all flavours of things you can't otherwise get, with an interaction model with no equal in software.
What an absolute load of bollocks. I could replace all that with freeware and be way better off. I have no doubt you prefer to work that way but that doesn't make it better in any way, shape of form. And there is certainly nothing special about any of those instruments that you couldn't do more easily and to a higher standard ITB.
You're so funny. OK. Then do it. Put up or shut up with your crap. I want to hear 100% identical sounds in software. Oh, I'm sorry: FREEWARE. Duplicate all of the functions and sounds of the OB-6, SE-02, and Digitone with freeware.

Here's a hint: there's nothing identical in software.. or I'd have bought it, because I thoroughly enjoy using software synths.

And, also, I want to read an exacting, specific list of what "higher standard ITB" is.

You seem to get triggered when people mention hardware of any kind. Did someone kill a loved one with a hardware synth? I don't know how many times in how many threads I've told you I use both hardware and software. But you seem to like talking and repeating yourself and never listening or learning.

Let me tell you again what some of the facts are (so you can once again ignore them and pretend to know what you're talking about):

1) I use both hardware and software

2) I personally choose to use hardware that doesn't have a 1:1 equivalent in software specifically because there's no 1:1 equivalent (I'm not talking approximation) in software, or I'd buy the software

3) There are no 1:1 software emulations (yet) of the OB-6, SE-02, or Digitone - you can get closest in software to those in the reverse order I listed them, but you can't get the exact sound. How do I know this? I spent time and effort researching (including trying things) instead of spouting off making fantastical claims in a vain effort to appear superior.

4) If you want a certain sound, and you can't get that identical sound except with a single solution, you get that solution (I personally am not stuck on whether the solution is hardware or software, as, again, I happily use both)

5) The sound of software is not always 100% interchangeable for hardware, especially if it isn't a 1:1 emulation

6) Hardware has a different interaction model than software

So, again, tell me, Oh Great One, what software is 100% the same as the synths I listed, because this is what you're claiming. 99% isn't good enough, because that'd be admitting that you're wrong, because that'd mean there's something special about those synths.
Last edited by vitocorleone123 on Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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vurt
addled muppet weed
86433 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:24 am

there is no box.
unless there is.

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elxsound
KVRAF
7350 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:26 am

vurt wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:24 am
there is no box.
unless there is.
GRRRRRRRR!

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20501 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:41 am

vitocorleone123 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:15 am
There are no 1:1 software emulations (yet) of the OB-6, SE-02, or Digitone
In addition, if one is using the sequencer of the Digitone, that physical interface leads to results that software wouldn't/couldn't.

So even if there was a software synth that was identical in sound, it still would not be anywhere close to the same as working with the Digitone sequencer interface.

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egbert101
KVRAF
2397 posts since 13 Jun, 2014

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:44 am

Can't we just get along without being hostile, rude and generally obnoxious? No, fine, carry on.
<list all your stupid gear here>

kritikon
KVRAF
5562 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:46 am

Hybrid here. having come back to music after quite a few years away from it, I've gone almost completely h/w for synths. I just enjoy them more. Always enjoyed playing them and found I just hated programming VSTis - though occasionally it works well for me, and I really do like the automation etc. Which I have to admit is so much easier nowadays - I was surprised at how much Cubase had moved on in terms of user friendliness with automation etc. But, impOSCar is pretty well the only VSTi I end up using. I have the full Korg legacy suite and like them but recently just haven't used them. Because I like the hands on so much more.

However for mixing, FX and general manipulation - ITB all the way. I miss a proper mixer - will probably get one at some point but just can't make my mind up whether to go for a small one, a line mixer or go for a big one again. Currently a line mixer is winning. It just makes it easier with h/w rather than patching etc which is what I do now. But even if I get a mixer - I'll still be doing most of the real mixing ITB. And sw FX really are so much easier (and often better). Still astounds me what is available in reverbs and delays now - can't ever see me going back to hw FX.

So for me - ITB for mixing, editing, mastering, FX and getting the job done. OTB for synths.
I'll happily just play for hours on a synth, not getting any music down, no intention of making songs etc. No way I'd do that with a VSTi. If just making weird noises and dicking around at noise is your thing, then ITB makes no sense IMO.

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DrGonzo
KVRAF

Topic Starter

2715 posts since 24 Oct, 2000 from A Swede Living in Budapest

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:48 am

vitocorleone123 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:15 am
You're so funny. OK. Then do it. Put up or shut up with your crap. I want to hear 100% identical sounds in software. Oh, I'm sorry: FREEWARE. Duplicate all of the functions and sounds of the OB-6, SE-02, and Digitone with freeware.
You are wasting your energies. Everybody knows what you are saying is right. I had an epic discussion with a similar guy over at GS, where he claimed he could replicate the sound of the 303 with any synthesizer. I said, sure, you can get into acid territory with basically any synth but the 303 sound is pretty damn distinctive. The guy said, no - he could make any synth sound like a 303 identical. When I asked him to show his talents he said he wouldn't do it, because everybody already have made up their minds it couldn't be done.

:hyper: :dog:

There is no spoon.
Plughugger Sound Design
ELEMENT 27 - MODAL COBALT8 sounds for OMNISPHERE
HARDWARE SAMPLER FANATIC - Akai S1100/S950/Z8 - Casio FZ20m - Emu Emax I - Ensoniq ASR10/EPS

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
12586 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:20 am

vitocorleone123 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:15 am
You're so funny. OK. Then do it. Put up or shut up with your crap. I want to hear 100% identical sounds in software.
Why? I'll give you an actual challenge. Pick a song and we'll see whose version of it sounds better - your shitty three hardware synths or my collection of softsynths that cost a tenth as much. Point me to a MIDI file and we'll get going. Or I can provide you with one if it's easier. And put any time limit on it you like.
Oh, I'm sorry: FREEWARE. Duplicate all of the functions and sounds of the OB-6, SE-02, and Digitone with freeware.
Let's see - OB-Xd, GR-8 and Dexed? Sounds about right, don't you reckon?
Here's a hint: there's nothing identical in software..
Here's a fact - there doesn't need to be. Open your eyes.
And, also, I want to read an exacting, specific list of what "higher standard ITB" is.
Zero noise. No line noise, no mains hum. No signal degradation caused by multiple AD/DA conversions or long cables. No need to run anything through a mixer to introduce even more noise. Is that enough for you? Because we can always get into processing power related issues if you want.
You seem to get triggered when people mention hardware of any kind. Did someone kill a loved one with a hardware synth? I don't know how many times in how many threads I've told you I use both hardware and software. But you seem to like talking and repeating yourself and never listening or learning.
I also have both hardware and software, or has that fact escaped you? In fact, it seems I have a lot more hardware than you do. That's why I can call bullshit on your bullshit.
I use hardware that doesn't have a 1:1 equivalent in software
So what? Are you so useless that you can't make the same timbre with a dozen different instruments? Honestly, it's like saying you can only watch TV on a Sony Bravia. A synth is a synth is a synth, they can all do most of the same stuff. You might convince yourself that only your OB-6 can sound like a SEM but guess what? I have plenty of synths that can do anything your OB-6 can do.
There are no 1:1 software emulations (yet) of the OB-6, SE-02, or Digitone - you can get closest in software to those in the reverse order I listed them, but you can't get the exact sound.
I bet I could get close enough that nobody could tell the difference if there was any point in trying. But it's the dumbest thing I can imagine.

Let me ask you a couple of questions - why do you have those synths? What did you buy them for? (Not why did you buy those specific synths but why did you by any synths at all? Why do you own any synths?) Do you expect anyone to believe that whatever it is that you think they can do that OB-Xd can't was worth the cost of a half-decent used car?
I spent time and effort researching (including trying things) instead of spouting off making fantastical claims in a vain effort to appear superior.
Again, I own more hardware than you do and I'm willing to bet that I've been using hardware since before you were born. So whilst I am glad you took some time to do a bit of research, you don't really think you know better than I do, surely?
If you want a certain sound, and you can't get that identical sound except with a single solution, you get that solution
See, this is where you expose the bullshit in your ranting. You can't possibly have known that what you bought would give you precisely what you wanted unless you convinced yourself beforehand that it would. You might be able to with software, where you could spend as much time as you needed to with a demo version, but with hardware the best you could hope for is to get a rough idea of what to expect before you paid your money and actually got hold of the thing. (This is 40 years of synth buying experience talking.) I could spend a whole day at Store DJ, monopolising their OB-6 and giving them all the shits, but I still wouldn't know if it was going to be better than bx_oberhausen and/or Obsession until I got it home, hooked it up and tried them side by side on my set-up. That's just how it is, there is no getting around it.
5) The sound of software is not always 100% interchangeable for hardware, especially if it isn't a 1:1 emulation
So what? The opposite is also true, even more so. It's the same bullshit argument that Evil Dragon tried to make. It's irrelevant.
6) Hardware has a different interaction model than software
So what? "Different" doesn't mean "better" and certainly won't lead to better results.
So, again, tell me, Oh Great One, what software is 100% the same as the synths I listed, because this is what you're claiming.
How about you tell my why any software needs to be 100% the same to do the same job? For a start, I don't know of any software synth with the ridiculous limitation of the OB-6's 6 voices. So unison in Obsession is just going to sound that little bit fuller, more lush. There's no way around it.
99% isn't good enough, because that'd be admitting that you're wrong, because that'd mean there's something special about those synths.
How about 133%, then? (That's 8 voice unison versus 6 voice unison, in case it's not clear.) What does that say about your hardware?
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

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