MSoundFactory concept & template round #3

[dmbaer]

To add to the discussion about master volume control availability and placement, I think we could definitely use something to help get everyone on the same page. We need a statement from on high about standards in this area. What follows is an example. I’m not saying this is the way things should be (although I do like it), but rather this is what I think such a standard should cover. Here ‘tis:

MIDI CC 7 will be hard-wired in MSoundFactory to govern master instrument volume. It should not be used for loudness control by a preset. It may be used in a preset to also control other performance aspects, although this is not recommended. In any case, it should not be turned off with respect to master instrument volume.

Expression, MIDI CC 11, should be the MIDI controller used by preset designers in governing preset loudness. Here the preset designer has latitude as to how to use it most effectively. It is recommended that all presets try to use MIDI CC 11 in this capacity. It may also be used to control other performance aspects but that should be “in addition to” rather than “instead of” governing loudness.

Using the above scheme, CC 11 would modulate the volume between silence and the volume set by CC 7. CC 7 would dictate the loudest that MSoundFactory could be. CC 7 should be global across presets and never manipulated by a preset.

Now, the above assumes it would be CC 11 controlling a volume control in easy mode (be it on a global tab, multiple tabs, or whatever), and CC 7 would operate below the UI level, possibly even in edit mode. Maybe that merits further discussion. However, if we have no consensus as to the use of CC 7 vs CC 11, then further discussion has little hope of resolution, IMO.

[Chandlerhimself]

dmbaer - I don't think many would have a problem with having CC 7 control global volume. I don't know how well it will work with the locks, but I doubt many would care either way. CC 11 is sometimes used, but CC 1(mod wheel) is also used sometimes. I don't know if there really needs to be a standard. Perhaps just a reminder about how to implement midi CC control. Using the mod matrix for midi CC is great for per voice things, but for the modwheel or expression pedals, doesn't always offer any benefits. Using the midi button on the bottom right allows you to control things, but also gives you the ability to change midi CC assignments. I don't know if there needs to be a rule about this type of thing, but maybe just make people aware of it and use common sense when designing presets.


While we're waiting for the device stuff to be worked out maybe we should work on creating presets for the individual modules. Now there seem to a lot of randomly generated presets in the modules. I don't know about anyone else, but I never use these, so I'd rather have them replaced with things that are more generally useful. This is especially true with wavetables. Some of the random ones actually sound good, but others aren't that interesting and the names make remembering them impossible. Having 50-100 good wavetables, with descriptive names would really help things IMO and its something that can be done now.

[jmg8]

Actually the presets are not randomly generated, they just have randomly generated names.
It is difficult to to have sets of presets that work well all the time. One time you might go through the presets and find a few useful, next time it might be completely different ones that make sense. It really depends on context and modulation settings etc. Part of the problem is that the modular presets can not define the assigned modulator shape and speed. So they can sound vastly different depending on each scenario. I see them as more of a luck dip type of inspiration thing.

I get what you mean about the names though. I didn't have time to name them in a meaningful way. So maybe you could add to the presets and do some renaming also?

[dmbaer]

I don't know if there really needs to be a standard.

Well, I for one seriously need some further guidance. Whether that's to be called a standard or something else, I don't care.

If, as Vojtech stated earlier, that CC 7 was already controlling volume in MSF, what does that mean? Should we also explicitly associate CC 7 with the Volume MP? Or should we, in fact, never do that because it disrupts the hard-wired nature of CC 7? This really needs to be clarified.

Now, if CC 7 should be ignored, then does that make CC 11 the de facto volume CC hooked to the Volume MP? Vojtech said earlier that CC 11 was expected to be utilized in every preset (and any mention of volume, CC 7, in that post was conspicuously absent). Again, I want to know the expectations. If every sound designer makes his/her own guess, the results will be a frustrating user experience at best and a rather unprofessional mess at the end of the day.

These things really do need to get spelled out in some detail, IMO, if any consistency among MSF presets is to be achieved.

[dmbaer]

While we're waiting for the device stuff to be worked out maybe we should work on creating presets for the individual modules.

I would very much like to be doing that very thing. The problem, as I see it, is that the bulk of the work in setting up a great module-level preset is in associating MPs with the thing. Whether that's in the generator section or FX section, it's the same challenge.

If we had the ability to set up an individual module to save as a preset and define an arbitrary number of MPs that would be saved and recalled with it, that would make for a good ROI of our time. But don't take that comment as a feature request - I'm cannot envision any way to actually implement a scheme like this. Copy/cut and paste of blocks of contiguous MPs might be a start, though. Also, being able the give a group name to a contiguous block of MPs all at once might help in this regard as well.

[bmanic]

Well having made quite a bit of commercial content for various entities I can put my vote in on the main volume control:

It is 100% absolutely mandatory to have one. Anybody who says otherwise has not done these things professionally (that is created hundreds/thousands of sounds).

Like dmbaer said, the volume control immediately available is really important especially when experimenting and dialling in the main ideas and then when you need to fine tune the final output volume of the presets. All serious companies that take presets seriously always state volume target with a polyphony count (and separately for monophonic sounds) and usually also desire an RMS/Luffs target (though this is rarely forced as it can be difficult to stick to it depending on sound source).

So yeah, not having an immediately accessible output volume control of some sort will sceam made for amateurs by amateurs. I know that is very harshly said but that's how it will look. What if somebody came out with a hardware synth and you had to always pop up a little extra lid behind the synth to adjust output volume?

[dmbaer]

I did some experimentation with what I think is the most recent version of the super saw preset. I changed nothing and just observed behavior. What I’m seeing is at minimum confusing, and in some cases bewildering. This supports my claim we need some guidance on issues related to volume control. You can easily repeat these experiments (and I wish at least one other person would to insure this isn’t one or more errors on my part).

In edit mode, go to Globals tab and observe that the Volume knob is slave to both CC 7 and CC 11. From you MIDI controller, send CC 7 or CC 11 data and notice that the Volume control knob moves. Note that neither CC 7 nor CC 11 shows up in MIDI assignments.

Next, while still in edit mode, alter the Volume knob to, say -6dB, then go from edit mode into easy mode. Then go to the Globals tab, and observe the Volume knob there. It will not be -6dB (unless it started out that way). So, your changes in edit mode to the Volume knob did not change the one in Easy mode. This is as would be expected. Next, change the Volume knob on the easy screen to, say -12dB. Go back into edit mode and note the Volume knob is now -12dB. And yet, look at the target assignments in MP 1 (which is Volume on the Easy screen). Its only target is Generator/Oscillator 2. This is *not* as would be expected.

I thought I understood MP modulation, but a whole lot of the above makes no sense whatever. But if I got one thing out of this, it would be to suggest that CC 11 should not be hardwired to Volume in edit mode. CC 7 is fine, but I would think we would want to leave it at that. And if CC 7 is dedicated to MSF master volume and not preset volume, then CC 11 should be the logical candidate for that assignment.

[Touch The Universe]

I have to agree, when it comes time to finalize a soundset/library with volume normalization across the presets, a global volume control is very handy. It would drive me bonkers if this weren't available.

[Chandlerhimself]

I understand why people are worried about normalizing volume for presets, but MSF doesn't work this way and moving the global volume control won't help with that problem. The global volume control is for the user and can be locked, so it can't be used to normalize your presets. Imagine if I designed a preset and used the global control to set the final volume. Perhaps I need to set the global volume to -7db to reach the target volume. Someone else sets it at +3db and someone else can just leave it at 0db. Now when a user is browsing MSF they like the preset that is set at +3db and they lock the global volume control, so they can keep browsing and they don't have to worry about the volume changing. When they get to my preset and hit a note it blows out their ears because now my preset is 10db above the normal level.

This is why IMO a global volume control shouldn't be on the generator page. People should add volume controls where they are needed. Ex, oscillators, filters, compressors, etc and the global volume should be used by the user. Preset designers should put volume controls where they are needed and they shouldn't be using the global control because there is no grantee it won't be changed. I'm not against volume controls, but IMO one at the top that controls global volume will look bad and won't work properly.

[DarkStar]

In edit mode, go to Globals tab and observe that the Volume knob is slave to both CC 7 and CC 11. From your MIDI controller, send CC 7 or CC 11 data and notice that the Volume control knob moves. Note that neither CC 7 nor CC 11 shows up in MIDI assignments.

CC#7 did change the Edit / Globals / Volume, but CC#11 did not (in v12.09rc1).

Next, while still in edit mode, alter the Volume knob to, say -6dB, then go from edit mode into easy mode. Then go to the Globals tab, and observe the Volume knob there. It will not be -6dB (unless it started out that way). So, your changes in edit mode to the Volume knob did not change the one in Easy mode. This is as would be expected.

Agreed - adjusting any target parameter does not affect the Multiparameter.

Next, change the Volume knob on the easy screen to, say -12dB. Go back into edit mode and note the Volume knob is now -12dB. And yet, look at the target assignments in MP 1 (which is Volume on the Easy screen). Its only target is Generator/Oscillator 2. This is *not* as would be expected.

Not quite - Globals / Volume on the Easy screen is actually MP 233 (Ctrl+Alt+click on an Easy screen parameter to open its MP Editor). And on the Edit screen MP233 does have the expected value.

I thought I understood MP modulation, but a whole lot of the above makes no sense whatever. But if I got one thing out of this, it would be to suggest that CC 11 should not be hardwired to Volume in edit mode. CC 7 is fine, but I would think we would want to leave it at that. And if CC 7 is dedicated to MSF master volume and not preset volume, then CC 11 should be the logical candidate for that assignment.

Disagree - neither should be hard-wired. Use the MIDI Settings, when the user can disable the, if desired. (This hard-wired issue was raised for MPowersynth, and need changing there too.)

[Chandlerhimself]

I did some experimentation with what I think is the most recent version of the super saw preset. I changed nothing and just observed behavior. What I’m seeing is at minimum confusing, and in some cases bewildering. This supports my claim we need some guidance on issues related to volume control. You can easily repeat these experiments (and I wish at least one other person would to insure this isn’t one or more errors on my part).

In edit mode, go to Globals tab and observe that the Volume knob is slave to both CC 7 and CC 11. From you MIDI controller, send CC 7 or CC 11 data and notice that the Volume control knob moves. Note that neither CC 7 nor CC 11 shows up in MIDI assignments.

Next, while still in edit mode, alter the Volume knob to, say -6dB, then go from edit mode into easy mode. Then go to the Globals tab, and observe the Volume knob there. It will not be -6dB (unless it started out that way). So, your changes in edit mode to the Volume knob did not change the one in Easy mode. This is as would be expected. Next, change the Volume knob on the easy screen to, say -12dB. Go back into edit mode and note the Volume knob is now -12dB. And yet, look at the target assignments in MP 1 (which is Volume on the Easy screen). Its only target is Generator/Oscillator 2. This is *not* as would be expected.

I thought I understood MP modulation, but a whole lot of the above makes no sense whatever. But if I got one thing out of this, it would be to suggest that CC 11 should not be hardwired to Volume in edit mode. CC 7 is fine, but I would think we would want to leave it at that. And if CC 7 is dedicated to MSF master volume and not preset volume, then CC 11 should be the logical candidate for that assignment.

I tested out the things you wrote above to the best of my ability. I found CC7 wired to volume and it did move the volume control on the edit screen as expected. However midi CC11 had no effect on anything. I don't know if you have a different setup, but for me CC11 didn't do anything with the super-saw device.

In the 2nd paragraph I'm not sure what you mean. It seems like its working as expected. MP1 is the volume of OSC2 and when I move it that decreases the volume of OSC2, so everything seems to be working perfectly AFAIK. I can't tell if you're talking about the global volume control on the easy screen(which I thought you were), but on mine that is working perfectly. It is MP232 it for me it is controlling global volume perfectly.

I don't think CC11 has to/should be used for volume(although it could). Earlier in the thread Vojtech said this.

Now, I also don't think forcing people to do something specific with modwheel or anything makes sense. This one WOULD make the designer's life a bit ugly indeed. I'd simply assume mod wheel, expression, pressure and timbre are THE controllers to support and that's it. How, that depends on the designer. My 2cents anyways.

I took this to mean "If you need to use midi CCs use MW, AT, EX and timbre instead of weird ones like CC17 or CC39. Try to focus on those instead of making a bunch or presets using CC2 for breath controllers". Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought this meant there are no rules regarding how they should be used, but more if you're going to use CCs try to use these instead of others.

CC7 seems to be hardwired to MSF as global volume(although you can remove it in the advanced screen), and of course there should be a warning about using it. CC11 seems to be free for anything people would like.

[dmbaer]

Not quite - Globals / Volume on the Easy screen is actually MP 233 (Ctrl+Alt+click on an Easy screen parameter to open its MP Editor). And on the Edit screen MP233 does have the expected value.

Aha, I think I know why we're seeing different things - my error. I think I was testing with a version of the template preset that was not the very latest. Many apologies for asking others to waste their time.

Not having CC 11 hard-wired clears up a lot of my concerns. But I still think we need Vojtech to establish what the standards are going to be in this area. It would appear that he has, at least initially, decided that CC 7 is to be hard-wired (and I'm totally OK with that). But to me that means CC 7 should normally not be used in a preset. Volume control at the preset level in a lot of presets will probably just require velocity modulation and nothing more. Where it does not, I still think some guidelines should be established.

CC 7, if hard-wired to global volume, establishes the max. loudness level to my way of thinking. I don't even think it should be lockable, and I don't think it should be allowed to be saved as part of a preset. To me, that's what "global" means - it is whole-instrument level, not preset level. This is the way it works in a number of virtual instruments that I can think of (but by no means all of them).

As for the ctrl+alt+click trick - brilliant! I never know about this one before. This should be most useful in the future.

[Chandlerhimself]

Getting back to modular presets

Jmg8- I’d like to do some new wavetables and I hope others will too. IMO its important to have descriptive names for them because it without that people can easily find what they want or remember what they liked before. I also think it would be nice to have more bread and butter wavetables. I’ll get to work on some, but I others will contribute too.

dmbaer- you actually can hook things up to MPs by using the modular module. You can save them and recall them easily. I made one preset like this, but there really should be more. These could be really helpful and save a lot of time.

[spencerlee]

nothing

[nichttuntun]

Well having made quite a bit of commercial content for various entities I can put my vote in on the main volume control:

It is 100% absolutely mandatory to have one. Anybody who says otherwise has not done these things professionally (that is created hundreds/thousands of sounds).

Like dmbaer said, the volume control immediately available is really important especially when experimenting and dialling in the main ideas and then when you need to fine tune the final output volume of the presets. All serious companies that take presets seriously always state volume target with a polyphony count (and separately for monophonic sounds) and usually also desire an RMS/Luffs target (though this is rarely forced as it can be difficult to stick to it depending on sound source).

So yeah, not having an immediately accessible output volume control of some sort will sceam made for amateurs by amateurs. I know that is very harshly said but that's how it will look. What if somebody came out with a hardware synth and you had to always pop up a little extra lid behind the synth to adjust output volume?

I understand this point of view. But isn't MSF not a freaky tool for sound freaks and creative people who don't really need all that show and shine stuff? Really... who will buy and use MSF to make a super-saw?