Ysabel's Lament

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KVRian

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1061 posts since 23 Nov, 2018 from Birmingham, UK

Post Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:25 am

Shabdahbriah wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:54 am
Beautiful.
Thanks for having a listen and taking the time to feedback - appreciated!
Mark Taylor, Chameleon Music - Professional composition and sound design for all media since 1994.

https://www.chameleonmusic.co.uk/

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KVRian

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1061 posts since 23 Nov, 2018 from Birmingham, UK

Post Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:26 am

htcnext2 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:16 am
The piano reminds me of Nils Frahm, also the pace of the track. Nice assemblement, sounds great!
Thank you - you can compare me to Nils Frahm anytime! :)
Mark Taylor, Chameleon Music - Professional composition and sound design for all media since 1994.

https://www.chameleonmusic.co.uk/

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KVRian
1055 posts since 28 Oct, 2005 from Finland

Post Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:52 am

Enjoyable music. A bit melancholy but beautiful. Good work.

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KVRian

Topic Starter

1061 posts since 23 Nov, 2018 from Birmingham, UK

Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:01 am

markkuja wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:52 am
Enjoyable music. A bit melancholy but beautiful. Good work.
Thanks for having a listen and feeding back some thoughts...yeah this one is definitely quite 'down' as such, but deliberately so! :)
Mark Taylor, Chameleon Music - Professional composition and sound design for all media since 1994.

https://www.chameleonmusic.co.uk/

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KVRian

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1061 posts since 23 Nov, 2018 from Birmingham, UK

Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:02 am

melomood wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:25 am
It is lovely & not shabby for a sampled instrument
Many thanks for the listen and comments - appreciated!
Mark Taylor, Chameleon Music - Professional composition and sound design for all media since 1994.

https://www.chameleonmusic.co.uk/

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KVRian

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1061 posts since 23 Nov, 2018 from Birmingham, UK

Post Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:00 am

mediumaevum wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:22 am
Nice piece, though I miss some more "epicness" in the middle, in terms of both higher and middle ranged strings (ensembles), leaving out the piano and solo cello, at least as a secondary theme.

A tip for you: If the instrument comes with MIDI-CC Expression/Dynamics (usually it's CC 11 and CC 1, respectively), I think you can create much more dynamics by drawing in curves (by hand), especially for the Dynamics. This (usually) controls the "soft-hardness" of the strings played.

What I usually do is to draw a curve for each note that goes up and fades down, slowly.
I think it makes it more realistic, at least that's the best one can do to make virtual instruments sound less "midi-like".

Try reading the manual on the instrument.
Many thanks for taking the time to have a listen and comment - always appreciated!
Nice piece, though I miss some more "epicness" in the middle, in terms of both higher and middle ranged strings (ensembles), leaving out the piano and solo cello, at least as a secondary theme.
Having listened to a fair amount of your tracks, I think you're mildly addicted to full orchestral style 'epicness'!/ :) :ud:

Here, with this little piece - no, I don't think it would work for me...I want it to be 'intense' and melancholic, but not 'epic'. The actual theme might, of course lend itself that way in a future piece maybe, but not here for me.
A tip for you: If the instrument comes with MIDI-CC Expression/Dynamics (usually it's CC 11 and CC 1, respectively), I think you can create much more dynamics by drawing in curves (by hand), especially for the Dynamics. This (usually) controls the "soft-hardness" of the strings played.
Yeah, I do get how most sample libraries of this sort work, believe me..recently did a full orchestral mockup with over 55 tracks and 140+ lanes of automation! :) CC11 and CC1 are just the tip of the iceberg in adding flow, musicality and expression to a MIDI part at times!

With orchestral strings I often automate a lot of parameters to give the lines more natural flow and musicality...Heavily bowed notes will be EQ'd very slightly brighter and even have the intonation slightly automated as these notes often go very slightly sharp...the list goes on and on in some pieces.

Also - don't forget that the CC numbers are all very interchangeable nowadays and MIDI learn functions mean that you can setup templates in whatever way is best for you.

This library is actually a little different to most as it's designed for live performance above anything else with the velocity of each note being absolutely crucial to the 'legato' response and the speed of playing directly affecting the intensity of the 'legato' feature. I performed the cello part live with my left hand whilst adding CC1 for dynamics live with my right...

Personally I think there is enough dynamic range in the cello part - certainly enough for this gentle little piece...although I accept that some listeners might want even more?

For reference - without any mixing / mastering, the dynamic range of the cello part ranges from -22dB on the very quietest notes to - 6.6dB on the very loudest.
What I usually do is to draw a curve for each note that goes up and fades down, slowly.
I think it makes it more realistic, at least that's the best one can do to make virtual instruments sound less "midi-like".
Yeah, it definitely can be done that way and often is by many, but I usually prefer to do it in real time as I find it provides more natural results most of the time for me personally...especially in more classically oriented pieces.
Try reading the manual on the instrument.
Not sure what makes you think I don't read manuals? But...this particular library doesn't have one as it's so simple and straightforward...just has a short intro video, nothing more! :)
Mark Taylor, Chameleon Music - Professional composition and sound design for all media since 1994.

https://www.chameleonmusic.co.uk/

KVRist
262 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Post Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:42 am

ChameleonMusic - Whatever works for your, is the way to go.

You definitely have a lot more knowledge of this stuff that I do. Yes, I'm a little addicted to "epicness" and full orchestra. Though I have made some more soloistic pieces every now and then (also recently).

But generally speaking your tracks are very inspiring for my own works.

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KVRian

Topic Starter

1061 posts since 23 Nov, 2018 from Birmingham, UK

Post Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:06 am

mediumaevum wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:42 am
ChameleonMusic - Whatever works for your, is the way to go.

You definitely have a lot more knowledge of this stuff that I do. Yes, I'm a little addicted to "epicness" and full orchestra. Though I have made some more soloistic pieces every now and then (also recently).

But generally speaking your tracks are very inspiring for my own works.
No worries...I wasn't at all offended...happy to take onboard any suggestions / hints / tips and regularly adjust pieces following feedback on KVR, but...

I don't want anyone to waste their time suggesting the use of CC1 and CC11 to me really...I taught / lectured in both Music and Music Technology for over 30 years! :)
Mark Taylor, Chameleon Music - Professional composition and sound design for all media since 1994.

https://www.chameleonmusic.co.uk/

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KVRAF
10114 posts since 13 Mar, 2009 from UK

Post Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:14 pm

Lovely tune/composition/performance, Mark. I really enjoyed it. This would make a great piece of scoring or theme music for a period TV drama movie or series. I didn't have any problem with the reverb on the cello, but I tend to use much more extreme reverbs anyway.

I've probably listened to it seven or eight times, and I haven't been able to detect any intonation issues with the cello.

"My legs are grey. My ears are gnarled. My eyes are old and bent."

Good work :)

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KVRian

Topic Starter

1061 posts since 23 Nov, 2018 from Birmingham, UK

Post Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:46 pm

seismic1 wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:14 pm
Lovely tune/composition/performance, Mark. I really enjoyed it. This would make a great piece of scoring or theme music for a period TV drama movie or series. I didn't have any problem with the reverb on the cello, but I tend to use much more extreme reverbs anyway.

I've probably listened to it seven or eight times, and I haven't been able to detect any intonation issues with the cello.

"My legs are grey. My ears are gnarled. My eyes are old and bent."

Good work :)
Hi Tim,
Thanks for having a listen and giving some feedback!

Yeah - reverb is OK for me...like it on real cellos as well, but it does also 'cover up the cracks' here a little in that library ! :)

I think this one ( a final version) might well go to a publisher...I think it has potential as a theme maybe...didn't really think of that when I wrote it as it was just a bit of a quick one for fun whilst 'locked down' as such!

intonation - those notes do have a minor issue (between a quarter and an eighth of a tone flat), but I don't think many will hear it at all (having a very sensitive sense of pitch is a bloody mixed blessing most days)! :) if they didn't bother you, then that's really good as my perspective in that area is seriously skewed!

I have actually contacted the company that created the library to ask about the intonation issue as it does only appear in certain note sequences...does really need sorting if possible by them!
Mark Taylor, Chameleon Music - Professional composition and sound design for all media since 1994.

https://www.chameleonmusic.co.uk/

KVRist
141 posts since 21 May, 2020 from germany

Post Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:20 am

ChameleonMusic wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:46 pm
seismic1 wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:14 pm
Lovely tune/composition/performance, Mark. I really enjoyed it. This would make a great piece of scoring or theme music for a period TV drama movie or series. I didn't have any problem with the reverb on the cello, but I tend to use much more extreme reverbs anyway.

I've probably listened to it seven or eight times, and I haven't been able to detect any intonation issues with the cello.

"My legs are grey. My ears are gnarled. My eyes are old and bent."

Good work :)
Hi Tim,
Thanks for having a listen and giving some feedback!

Yeah - reverb is OK for me...like it on real cellos as well, but it does also 'cover up the cracks' here a little in that library ! :)

I think this one ( a final version) might well go to a publisher...I think it has potential as a theme maybe...didn't really think of that when I wrote it as it was just a bit of a quick one for fun whilst 'locked down' as such!

intonation - those notes do have a minor issue (between a quarter and an eighth of a tone flat), but I don't think many will hear it at all (having a very sensitive sense of pitch is a bloody mixed blessing most days)! :) if they didn't bother you, then that's really good as my perspective in that area is seriously skewed!

I have actually contacted the company that created the library to ask about the intonation issue as it does only appear in certain note sequences...does really need sorting if possible by them!
hi mark,
I think I had voiced the intonation in public in (in this thread)... there I did something :oops:
i listened again... i stick with it: the Eb could be better :) ... in some moments, we talked about it.
btw.: cause it is such a "classical piece" - (if the buyer can afford it) - it would be a real joy to listen to it played by two pro-musicians. nothing sampled, the real thing. (no reproach to the sampling, at all)

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KVRian

Topic Starter

1061 posts since 23 Nov, 2018 from Birmingham, UK

Post Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:52 am

tomtom1 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:20 am
ChameleonMusic wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:46 pm
seismic1 wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:14 pm
Lovely tune/composition/performance, Mark. I really enjoyed it. This would make a great piece of scoring or theme music for a period TV drama movie or series. I didn't have any problem with the reverb on the cello, but I tend to use much more extreme reverbs anyway.

I've probably listened to it seven or eight times, and I haven't been able to detect any intonation issues with the cello.

"My legs are grey. My ears are gnarled. My eyes are old and bent."

Good work :)
Hi Tim,
Thanks for having a listen and giving some feedback!

Yeah - reverb is OK for me...like it on real cellos as well, but it does also 'cover up the cracks' here a little in that library ! :)

I think this one ( a final version) might well go to a publisher...I think it has potential as a theme maybe...didn't really think of that when I wrote it as it was just a bit of a quick one for fun whilst 'locked down' as such!

intonation - those notes do have a minor issue (between a quarter and an eighth of a tone flat), but I don't think many will hear it at all (having a very sensitive sense of pitch is a bloody mixed blessing most days)! :) if they didn't bother you, then that's really good as my perspective in that area is seriously skewed!

I have actually contacted the company that created the library to ask about the intonation issue as it does only appear in certain note sequences...does really need sorting if possible by them!
hi mark,
I think I had voiced the intonation in public in (in this thread)... there I did something :oops:
i listened again... i stick with it: the Eb could be better :) ... in some moments, we talked about it.
btw.: cause it is such a "classical piece" - (if the buyer can afford it) - it would be a real joy to listen to it played by two pro-musicians. nothing sampled, the real thing. (no reproach to the sampling, at all)
100% agree with you on those Eb notes - no argument...they are slightly flat...too much so for me, really! :) I think it's useful to remember that not every musician hears intonation the same way and I suspect that we are both at the more sensitive / fussy end! :borg: :help:

Hopefully the company will come up with a solution as it happens on a number of notes...always when approached above from a Major 3rd away...has to be a scripting issue and easily solved?

I still wait for a reply! :)

Normally I would just use melodyne to put the offending note back in tune, but the amount of vibrato built into the library means that Melodyne can't read the bloody notes accurately and it all glitches!

I also tried to use auto-tune on it and just simple pitch wheel data, but again the amount of vibrato on the note made the processing almost impossible.

It's possible that the vibrato may well be the issue with the scripting inside Kontakt and I have raised that as a possibility!

LIVE DUET - yeah...good idea when actually possible...expensive, but might well be worth it! I'd have to record. mix and master it myself cos of cost...

Room hire with appropriate acoustics + a good grand piano = £150 for 5 hours
Cellist from the CBSO = £225 for 3 hours
Pianist from the CBSo = £225 for 3 hours

£600!!!

Audio Engineer on top of that would be another £400! :)
Mark Taylor, Chameleon Music - Professional composition and sound design for all media since 1994.

https://www.chameleonmusic.co.uk/

KVRist
141 posts since 21 May, 2020 from germany

Post Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:58 am

£600 -- peanuts... :D
i never said that it will be cheap - but it would be nice :) problem is that the time musicians spend on their instrument (before they go public) is unseen for a lot of ppl. no one really knows the value behind. the buyers of your music maybe too - at least sometimes.

same thing on weddings/concerts: how much do you want?? - and then i have to explain. i practise on every day the whole year (ok almost...), i studied this thing over 7 years, i have to buy the scores... and on and on... and i want to live (at least a bit), too.

that intonation thing: strangely enough, it doesn't bother me much in pop-music context. but as soon as it comes close to classical music, my synapses freak out. I don't want to ride around on the Eb any more now, but when I heard that hte first time, everything contracted inside me. is such a German idiom, do not know whether it makes sense in the English language. :lol:

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KVRian

Topic Starter

1061 posts since 23 Nov, 2018 from Birmingham, UK

Post Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:22 am

tomtom1 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:58 am
£600 -- peanuts... :D
i never said that it will be cheap - but it would be nice :) problem is that the time musicians spend on their instrument (before they go public) is unseen for a lot of ppl. no one really knows the value behind. the buyers of your music maybe too - at least sometimes.

same thing on weddings/concerts: how much do you want?? - and then i have to explain. i practise on every day the whole year (ok almost...), i studied this thing over 7 years, i have to buy the scores... and on and on... and i want to live (at least a bit), too.

that intonation thing: strangely enough, it doesn't bother me much in pop-music context. but as soon as it comes close to classical music, my synapses freak out. I don't want to ride around on the Eb any more now, but when I heard that hte first time, everything contracted inside me. is such a German idiom, do not know whether it makes sense in the English language. :lol:
Intonation - yeah, context is important without a doubt! It bugged me loads whilst composing it and I nearly didn't post it at all on any music forums because of the issue...even tried other cello libraries that I own and other virtual instruments, but this one just sounded 'right'... apart from those 4 Ebs! :)

It's interesting that quite a few people on classical music forums did NOT notice it at all at first and couldn't pick out the flat notes, but once their focus was pointed in the right direction, they really reacted against it! :)

I think part of the issue is the predictable highly accurate tuning that exists in the virtual world...put a few notes slightly 'off' and they might well stand out more than in a 'live' instrumental solo where the tuning is very good overall, but less regular and not 100% predictable?
Mark Taylor, Chameleon Music - Professional composition and sound design for all media since 1994.

https://www.chameleonmusic.co.uk/

KVRist
141 posts since 21 May, 2020 from germany

Post Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:50 am

ChameleonMusic wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:22 am
I think part of the issue is the predictable highly accurate tuning that exists in the virtual world...put a few notes slightly 'off' and they might well stand out more than in a 'live' instrumental solo where the tuning is very good overall, but less regular and not 100% predictable?
that's definitivly true. i can remember listening to a performance of the violinist Gitlis when he was already an old man - the intonation was (judged absolutly) horrible, but the whole performance was somehow heart moving and captivating - that in the end it didn't matter that much. in a live performance you can watch the players, you feel and hear the room ambience, the other ppl breathing, there is much more sound going on - which is flowing to your ears.

btw. what classical forums do exist out there? i have really no idea what is going on in the web... :D

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