a songwriters rythmic dilemma

[leonard]

Being a home recording songwriter, making plain pop mainstream sort of stuff, I must admit that I am meeting big doubts with all the drum related stuff.

I've been buying a few loop cd's and as I am not very good at sketching rythms in my host (cubase sl), I feel I need some more aid: maybe I haven't made wise purchases, but the loops don't really speed up a thing.

1 I have always cheated myself into thinking that a few loops would support the creative process. But as a matter of fact, the last two or three years I've been sitting with my guitar and a portable cassette recorder, which is fine, but then, at some point, I'd like to go to my daw and start playing a little with my expensive toys. This just doesn't work for me. Best case scenario, I find a good EP-sound and use that alone. Worst case scenario: I sit for hours browsing sample or loop cd's. What does/doesn't work for you, fellow songwriters in the writing process?

2 Then I may eventually have a nice tune on tape and it's time to make a demo out of it. Here I am completely lost. Once more, browsing my loop cd's, struggling with cubase's piano roll, puking about the outcome, becoming increasingly upset and less optimistic.

So I have been making an extensive research about what kind of aid you can get out there, other then hyring a drummer to teach you some theory, which admittedly may be a big payoff in the long term.

Can you please give me some sensible advice on how to become more productive, both on point 1 and point 2 (see above)? My ambition is not to make a perfect demo, just something that I won't be too ashamed to listen to some day in 5 or 10 years.

Right now one can join the RM IV group buy.
The other competitor, DR008 costs only 99 bucks, and it works well with a little app called "Slicy Drummer", which along with "Fill-in-drummer" ("something"), becomes some sort of Groove Agent? Right, RM IV, Battery and DR008, they all support layering, but what's the point with layering for a non programmer - non midi drummer sucker as I am?

Should I get a vst like Groove Agent? I have briefly auditioned it at the local gear pimp, I liked the idea, but it made me kinda....sad? A Roland E90 back in the 90's used to impressed me more. Maybe I was easier to impress once, maybe I should find a used E35?

FL Studio? Tried it a couple of times, and while it seems a very interesting and intuitive tool, I could not see my self taking vast amounts of times from the actual songwriting. I know that a few songwriters can squeeze great rythics out of it, hence I'm free for the "it's-only-for-electronic-musician" prejudice. But would it cut it for me?

Or should I get a few more loop cd's, such as Drums on Demand, Discrete Drums, NYC Drumworks?

Then I'd surely need to get either something a la Recycle/Phatmatik Pro or even give Acid a spin? And is Abletone Live useful at all for songwriting? In my limited understanding of it, it is geared towards performing DJ and the alikes.

Advice strongly needed, thank you in advance!

P.S.= please don't mind my redundant post, it certaintly has a therapeutic value.

[Quakemazer]

http://traxmusic.org/reviews.shtml

On that page look under 'Audio Processing Ariticles' and check out 'Drumming for Non-Drummers'.

The article suggests DR-008 combined with Slicey Drummer, and I have to agree it's a winning combination. They work extremely well together.

I use slicey drummer to get a rough idea, and it lets you drag and drop midi right out of the MFX plugin (into SX 2). I then modify the midi events if need be, etc... It's a nice fast way to work.

To utilize Slicey Drummer you'll need a host that can use MFX plug-ins, such as Sonar or Cubase.

Ah I see you use SL, so I'd imagine it'll work in that.

[Chickenman]

OR post up your demos and do a collaboration with someone here. I'll take the time to do one if you post it up in the next day or so.

[xoxos]

are you just looking to make 'real drums' or is your problem that you're not finding your 'rhythm department' :p

if it's the latter, whatever techniques you're good at/"own," can you expand them to a rhythmic derivative?

eg. it's hard to replicate "someone else's sound" of eg. a studio-recorded drumset.. takes some fair work to learn to emulate that digitally.. but if you make a bunch of 'percussive' samples by smacking your guitar or whatever, they're entirely your sounds and there's no "proper" way to use them.. then it's easier to create somethnig you/people can't be as critical about.

[RustedMonkey]

I am primarily a guitarist who finds it much easier to write music with a beat going on. The problem is, I suck at percussion. About 7 month ago I became very frustrated with everything I was working on because the drums just plain old sucked. I also wasn’t writing as much as I would in a band setting because there was nothing to play along to. I gave up and got Groove Agent after playing with the demo. Not only did it increase the amount of projects I was completing but also it gave me a better understanding of putting together my own beats. It’s much easier when you have full beats to listen to and you can mute everything out but a hi-hat or whatever and see what’s going on.

[SuitcaseOfLizards]

I too am a guitarist now become keyboard player and solo musician.. and I can't drum worth a damn, nor can I even compose a drum track with my DR008 and Tracktion that doesn't sound like it was done by.. a guitar player.

How I work: I either have a "feel" in mind for the tune, or lyrics that dictate a certain approach. I have 5 CDs of Beta Monkey drum loops on my HD, I'll poke around for a specific BPM and then check out loops at that speed. Load up a basic groove into Tracktion, loop it, and either lay down bass or scratch vocals. At some point I'll unloop the drums and drop in fills or alternate patterns to add variety.

This approach works pretty well for me, rarely do I end up spending more than 10-15 minutes (if that) to find the basic tempo and feel I want. Beats the hour or so I typically used to spend just to get a seriously lame beat with a step sequencer or hand entering MIDI notes.

I hear Slicy and DR008 do a good job, but my current system is pretty effective.

[Caleb]

Yeah - personally I think Stylus, DR008 with Slicy Drummer/Fill-in, Groove Agent whatever is likely to be helpful to you now.

If you happen to sequence in Sonar then you don't necessarily need DR008, you can use Slicey Drummer etc. within the host itself and just direct it to whatever sampler, drum unit you happen to want to use.

These will probably help you with your drum parts for the moment. And I'd try to learn from them while you're using them. It might help you to program your own percussion parts later on.

Personally, I don't use any of these things. I would buy Slicy Drummer if I had an MFX-compatible host and as it is DR008 with Slicy still seems pretty tempting to me.

And this is not because I'm a good percussion writer - far from it. Not a natural at all. I program in small loops with the playback cycling ad nauseam while I add a hit there remove a hit there until I come up with something I like. The good thing about this is that I can quite often come up with rythms and hit combinations that I never would have as a performing drummer. The bad thing about it is that I end up with drum parts rigidly quantized and lacking in velocity variation which I then have to remember to fix up later.

Caleb

[Sicklecell666]

The bad thing about it is that I end up with drum parts rigidly quantized and lacking in velocity variation which I then have to remember to fix up later.

That's not neccessarily a bad thing at all, depends on what your doing. Of course, I'm probably in a minority here as I prefer machine rigid quantizing mostly.

I hated doing anything drum related till I started using Orion..

[Caleb]

Too true sickle, I was thinking more about accoustic drum programming.

Usually if I'm doing non-accoustic drum programming I don't care as much if the pattern itself is rigid.

I still care about velocity fluctuations on things like hats though.

Caleb

[deastman]

Two things... First, DR-008 and Slicy is a winning combination. You can use all the Slicy rhythms which are already created, and mix and match them, randomizing until you find something which works. You can also edit the patterns yourself if need be. That is one thing you can do.

The other is just to get better at drum programming. I would suggest starting by spending some time with a step sequencer such as Fruity or the drum sequencers in Orion. Play around with kick/snare/hihat combinations, and start learning the vocabulary of rhythm. After you start to get a better understanding of how these elements relate to each other, load up the kick/snare/hihat samples on a keyboard, and play them live for a while. Then find a loop which you like, and try to emulate it yourself. Repeat.

[neverwhere2012]

i gotta agree with deastman on the learning point. the more you study rhythms, the better you'll get. learn some drum theory, even if you never plan to play drums, learning some basics won't hurt. i recently decided to extend the length of my time at college by switching to a percussion major this semester, and just learning basic rudiments has really opened my eyes to a lot of different stuff programming-wise. a lot of it is really subtle things, but it's the subtle elements that make a difference. and besides, learning multiple instruments can only improve how well you play the ones you know. i know my keyboard skills have improved a bit since i started working on snare drum and marimba techniques.

in the end though, good drum programming is always going to take a lot of time. it can often come down to just a matter of how much patience and attention to detail you want to bring to the table. fortunately, if i ever really badly need realistic drum sounds, i have an electronic kit and solid drummer friends, but not everyone is as much of a bastard as i am

[r_module]

like many I recommend DR008 + slicy/fillin-drummer. it's a killer combination (esp. when using DFH as sample resource).

if you have a footswitch/sustain pedal and some
SE skills (if not ask any of the devs) you can switch sequences/fills with the pedal while playing. very comfortable.

[very angry mobster]

loops sound good in isolation but i find them hard to use in songs. get a sampler with some accoustic drum samples and program some drum loops yourself. As programmed accoustic drums, they'll probably sound crap (at least they will without a lot of intricate programming work), but with a little practice they will be usuable as backing for demos. thats my opinion anyway..

(i really don't like the idea of having to buy new software to do something new.)

[cimoc]

For mainstream pop and such, I think the best thing to do (if money is not a problem) is

a) Learn theory (even a little takes you a long way)
b) Get Groove Agent. Lay basic drum tracks with it.
c) Get a proper drum synth (DR008 or RMIV or whatever you like to work with- check the demos)
d) Groove Agent records its output in a midi track. Take that track, route it to your drum synth, and tweak anything there is to tweak (sounds, velocities, timing, add notes, whatever...)
e) Learn theory (did I mention that already?)
f) While studying, check out the relation between bass and drums as well. It is not too much work, and it pays off in the short-run.

Eventually you won't need Groove Agent, but it provides an instant initial ispiration, which seems to be what you need.

[nocompromise]

eeeerrrrrr
there is no fast track to getting good at drum programming. likewise, there is no fast track to be the best drummer/guitarist/synth programmer/etc/etc

All the advice here is great but..........

You need to practice at it. If your drum track sucks, do it again and again and again and again.

What is it the last few days with everyone wanting to get A1 results without putting the work in.........

So my advice is use whatever 'tool' you want to get the drums down. But practice practice practice.

Listen to other peoples drum tracks you like and copy them. Wow theres a novel idea eh? Listen